[Swifty Willownall]

Warning: Discussion thread below! (That means a lot of reading.)



Earlier sometime today, I was speaking with StoPlains. We were talking about our feelings on the current state of RP on the server and it's setting in general as a whole, but for this topic I would like to narrow it down to some of the ideas we bounced between each other, centered around DM Events. We all, or the vast majority of us know what a DM event is. Some cool situation or scenario that our lovely Dungeon Master's have whisked up for us out of their hard work and imaginations for all of us to enjoy. We all usually go on a big adventure, maybe fight some monsters, maybe RP with some NPCs, and at the end of it hopefully are rewarded with that sweet exp and phat loot. But in order for everyone involved to have fun, there are definitely certain criteria that needs to be met. Now, every DM has their own style, ideas, and ways of doing things, so let's stick to the more vague, blanketing things.

Let's start off with one of the bigger things we criticized, DM Event Party composition!

I'm not talking about the parties mechanical powers, I'm talking about all of the other things. Things such as, the amount of people on the DM event, characters that do or do not make sense being there, and even the level range of the people involved. I don't know about you, but I don't have much experience being a DM for NWN. But DMing for more than say, 5 or 6 people at once for a PnP session becomes very hectic. Simply because, there's just too many dang people! The more people you add on to an event, a quest, a scenario, the more actions take place, the more ideas are spawned, and the more ideas that there are, the more personalities and clashing of said ideas occur. Let's use a DM event that happened a few weeks ago that StoPlains and I were a part of, where the Knight Commander of MoonGlow Keep requested aid from the adventuring populace to track down and discover what happened to a missing Knight Patrol. I don't know the exact numbers, though I do not think it would be too big of an exaggeration if I were to guess that between 20 and 30 PCs showed up. To me, it wasn't very efficient. So many people talking at once, so many alignments and personalities bickering, no one could agree on a face or leader to keep the party on track and moving as a single unit, it was chaotic. Now I know a lot of DMs like to involve as many players as they can, and at a glance this seems like a really good policy. BUT, after a certain point, involving more and more people actually starts to detract away from all the fun. Nobody likes to play favorites, and nobody likes to be left out, but sometimes that's just the way things are. And while some of the responsibility falls on DMs to regulate that sort of thing, we also share a responsibility as players to be the bigger person and say "You know what? You guys have enough people. I'll try to tag along on the next event that comes around." Less people makes balancing and pacing the event easier on the DM team also. That said, we believe a good example for next time might be something that looks like this.

Quest giver: Oh, that sure is a lot of you that showed up. You there, PC name who has some sort of correlation with this event(Or simply the first PC to show up if there isn't anything to correlate to), pick X number of these people to join you on this event.

This solves a lot of those issues. It passes away the pressure of picking favorites from the DM, it allows an easier to contain party, it identifies a team leader, and it allows a team composition to be created from IG characters for IC reasons.

Secondly, let's talk about RP and IC reasoning. Some of you might do this, some of you might not, some of you might have different opinions. Leave your ideas below! When DMs make announcements for events, they usually do a good job at letting us know what kind of event it's going to be exactly, or what sort of atmosphere we can expect. Earlier today there was an event that basically came off as some shady person was looking for people to do some shady business in a shady part of the world.(Upperdark) Did it sound fun? Heck yeah it did, but I didn't go. Why? Because I believe that no good aligned character would have gone, let alone a paladin. Now, yes, this is just my opinion, and I can understand the kind of issues that might arise with a DM saying "No, you're not welcome along." but this is an opinion I believe others will agree with me based upon logical thinking and common sense. Basically, if your PC wouldn't do it IC, just don't show up to an event. Or if you do, do it with an expectation of being kicked out or bullied away through some snarky RP before the event kicks off. No one can force you to play a certain way, but do be mindful of the ways your play style effects the enjoyment of others.

And lastly we have level ranges/power levels! So let's say your character is online when an event summon is made, awesome! You hurry over and you're one of the first there, great! You even have an IC reason for being on this specific event, fantastic! Buuuut you still shouldn't go. Why?! Simple, you're just too dang strong. Yes, we all like being strong, and some of us like being the hero or center of attention more than others, but being that guy can sometimes be a negative thing. In an easy example, you show up to a DM even with 6 other people. There's you, McBadass with your level 15 Barbarian and 250+ hp, and then there's 4 other halflings and a dwarf who's all level 7 and you could maybe take them all in a fight, probably. You yourself as a player haven't done anything wrong, but do be mindful that your presence there skews the balance by a lot. This problem is tricky, because it's a case to case basis, but since it's tricky it's also one of the biggest thing we as players need to be mindful of. Event seems to have a lot of diplomacy and talking in it? Okay sure, levels probably don't really matter. There's going to be a lot of fighting, and you're the only sensible melee combatant in the group with 4 other wizards? Okay, probably a good idea to stick around. There's already a party of 6 with a fairly good composition as far as you can tell and the event is to clean out the sewers from a bunch of goblins? Your level 15 archmage-turning into a lich wizard can probably sit this one out and let the lower level people have their spotlight. All a case by case basis, just use your better judgement. 

Agree with my opinions? Don't? Thought of something else you noticed that could be addressed?

[Empress of Neon]

The level range bit is tricky; I find the best way to address it is by giving the lower levels a different role in the event (The grave golem event was a great example); or simply (on the dm's end) ensure the lowbies aren't in the center of fury/attention from the wrecking crews that are the monsters/bosses. I've personally been able to navigate these events as a low lvl well enough, but I know it can be challenging for others. Even so, I wouldn't ask someone to refrain from an event just because their characters are higher level. It's an opportunity for my character to learn through observation and a chance to forge relationships/see new interesting interactions playout.

I will absolutely agree that there is a TREMENDOUS issue with people attending events, even when it's unwarranted ic/makes 0 sense. I should not be seeing anti-slavery idealists willfully helping slavering monsters commit genocide/play fetch for their boss or druids consorting/aiding perveyors of unnatural entities like demons, aberrants or undead. Perhaps the only exception is if your character is spying/planning to sabotage, but in no other circumstance does this contrivance pan out. It absolutely INFURIATES me. The same goes for company. If there's someone in the company of those attending who your character absolutely can not stand and the de-facto leader won't send them off, then don't attend? I can't count how many events I've missed out because my character(s) loath or despise people they refuse to work with (P.S, this is problematic when they show up to literally every event imaginable so... nyeh ) ; but I'd do it all again to keep consistent/keep the character believable. If something as meta as losing out on exp is pushing your character to act/do something they otherwise normally would not do, you are on the wrong server.

Lastly, composition is also tricky. No one should be excluded from events if they're willing to attend. Having said that, I think dms can definately help by making npcs a bit more selective (E.g., "HA! I know who you are, Arcanist. You'll not be defiling MY grove anytime soon."). Adds to the atmosphere/gives the npcs more believability as people v.s quest vendors when they got their own morals/preferences they abide by

[frohawk]

You bring up some interesting thoughts.

Quest giver: Oh, that sure is a lot of you that showed up. You there, PC name who has some sort of correlation with this event(Or simply the first PC to show up if there isn't anything to correlate to), pick X number of these people to join you on this event.

I think turning people away from events should be a hard no. Let's face it, lots of us have a lot of things going on in real life. A lot of the recurring PCs play mainly on the weekends. I have seen a few at least. What if there is an event scheduled, they log on for that event just to get turned away? That would be extremely disheartening to the PCs involved. I could see this idea working if there were multiple DMs doing different events in different areas of the server, but usually, if an event is going on, all of the DMs are focusing on that one event.

If the DM or player wants a smaller group of people to attend, it should be made clear ahead of time and usually without telling the whole server.

Secondly, let's talk about RP and IC reasoning. Some of you might do this, some of you might not, some of you might have different opinions. Leave your ideas below! When DMs make announcements for events, they usually do a good job at letting us know what kind of event it's going to be exactly, or what sort of atmosphere we can expect. Earlier today there was an event that basically came off as some shady person was looking for people to do some shady business in a shady part of the world.(Upperdark) Did it sound fun? Heck yeah it did, but I didn't go. Why? Because I believe that no good aligned character would have gone, let alone a paladin.

I agree with this to a degree. A while ago there was a pair of events. The first one was helping Sullivans capture slaves and the second one was to help reclaim the slaves. I had originally planned on attending the first one but got caught up in something. After the event, I heard it was an event about capturing slaves. I, as you do, didn't think my character would be interested in that and most likely would have turned it down after we found out what we were doing.

All though, as I am thinking about it now the event still could have been interesting for my character. If your character morally doesn't agree with the mission, they could do something that causes the mission to fail. Using my event, if I had gone on my character I could have purposely got the group caught or PVP'd and attacked the party.

And lastly we have level ranges/power levels! So let's say your character is online when an event summon is made, awesome! You hurry over and you're one of the first there, great! You even have an IC reason for being on this specific event, fantastic! Buuuut you still shouldn't go. Why?! Simple, you're just too dang strong. Yes, we all like being strong, and some of us like being the hero or center of attention more than others, but being that guy can sometimes be a negative thing.

This one falls to the DMs a bit. If your character is level 15, but the rest of the group is lower then the DM should recognize that and balance the encounter accordingly.

Empress of Neon has an interesting suggestion where the DMs give a different role to the lower levels.

Level 15+ character only get XP from DM events. Now, yes you shouldn't be coming to events just for the XP, but if you have a reason to be in the event why not. Plus the people playing those character want to be involved just like the lower levels. They are obviously enjoying that character so they should attend any and all events possible.

I get what you are saying, but aside from the DM specifically level capping an event, I have to go back to what I said at the start. No one should be turned away from events.

[Cooptastic]

I don't know why this is an issue OOC. If you have a problem with a character being around you or at an event... Then deal with it IC.

If you're playing a character who is loathed by the general populace... I wouldn't know what to tell you.

My character (Nica) doesn't particularly care who is around her, she is there for the possibility of recovering a relic or gaining favor with some group that she can eventually manipulate to gain something from them.

[Swifty Willownall]

Cooptastic is right and I agree with them 100%. If there are issues between characters IG, they should be dealt with IG. That said, there are things we as players can have our characters do IG, that could effect people negatively OOC. Immersion breaking is a good example. Many people sometimes cause OOC grievances without even trying to. I mentioned it on the discord, but a good phrase to explain what I'm getting at would be "Too many cooks in the kitchen." No one is trying to negatively impact anyone else, and everyone just wants to have fun, but it's important for all of us to be mindful of things that might bring down everyone's collective fun.

To go off of the other thing that have been said, the idea of excluding other people from fun things does leave a bad taste in my mouth, even if it would be for the betterment of everyone else. Ideally, we as players would have the courtesy to know how not to power-game the event and can gauge the power-level of the atmosphere we're in, but for a lot of us, especially the newer people who haven't played NwN or even a RP server before, that might not be so easy. I do like the idea of people getting different roles to fulfill in events like that though.

[SpiffyHas]

Groups larger than 8 get a massive headache from the DM. Trust me. Turning people away is sometimes the only good option.

[Cptzambie]

i disagree we should NEVER turn players away from events that is downright unfair and will lead to other problems down the line trust me.

[ToxicWrench]

Remarking on that note, if I've made a small event that's specifically designed for a small group and 20 people rock up, I would be turning them away.

However these events are rarely announced publicly as that will "open the flood gates" so to speak. We all try to make events as open to as many as possible, but it's unrealistic to think that is always the case.

[Leyoz]

I don't really disagree with anything said. That big groups are very unwieldy and no where near as fun as the traditional small group and a Dm. I tend to say very little during an event as the wall of text is real. So the personalised DM small group stuff is definitely the best.

BUT

The events are still great fun, as anytime a Dm us involved tend to be.

They give a chance to be inclusive of plots and share info in a fun way.

They give some players that for a variety of reasons don't get much chance to do stuff with a dm a chance to get in on the fun.

DMs time is precious. A big bang for buck event every now and again shares the love.

It's generally inclusive which is a good thing and I think a positive overall feature if the server.

[Rainman]

My general rule is ...

If I use Shout then it is an open event and will do my best to balance the event to the players that turn up, if not I get a player from the faction to announce the event so players know who should be running/leading the event from a player point of view.

[granny]

Indeed, myself coming from a somewhat different setting on regards of player culture I cannot deny that I have noticed some behaviors that were strange to me. Namely they were:

• PCs that actively aided or ignored the actions and presence of those that were supposedly to disturb/ disrupt/ endanger/ hunt them;
• PCs that walked around enemy areas without any precaution, using the resources of such areas while openly under the colors of their own factions;
• PCs that were in massive events that could be against their own agenda and neither decided to antagonize it or at least walked away disgusted, frustrated, angered etc..
• The lack of (or low) post interaction on regards of such AMAZING events, be it with recordings, be it in using as a means of creating RP opportunities. Some PCs seem to be there just for the XP/ gold.

And, honestly, there is little reason for these things to happen here. The DMs of this server are incredibly supportive, attentive and busy trying to shape meaningful experiences for everyone. It is not like your character needs to be a protagonist in every single event. It is not even like we need to be present in all of them in order to progress with our PCs. Not to mention that we have almost an event per day here. That is not something I have seen before in any other server. I have told it to some fellow players and I would like to say it for the others: I like how it seems that DMs are almost always having fund WITH us and playing WITH us. Yeah, I blame you for it being so hard for me to log out. 

Beyond the already suggested proposition of us players to ponder about creating other meaningful ways of creating interesting and coherent interactions in such conditions, I have been pondering about one more mechanical thing that might or might not have an impact on this "all together always" mindset: the removing of the party tool. My assumption is that this mechanical change could have a cultural impact on the way character relationships are portrayed, diminish meta-gaming, make things a bit more challenging and push for a more cautious play in order to protect those that the PC cares and pay attention on those that they fear.

[Swifty Willownall]

@Rainman: I like that idea. Open shout or RP message for big events, or using specific PCs for smaller more exclusive things. Good idea with that.

@Granny: Oooh, taking away the party system. I'm equally for it and against it. Against it because I've never not used that system, and I enjoy seeing who's in my party. But taking parties away...I would never be able to see someone having ungodly hp and have my subconscious automatically make the decision of "I'm just not going to try to conflict with that PC at all because I can guess OOC just how strong they are compared to me."

[SteelsSweets]

This is a hard subject.

I agree with some. If your character doesn't have a reason to be there, then don't. But I'm also on the "don't have a lot of time to play and get involved in complex plots" list. So to some I'd be one of those characters that shouldn't be there.

I also hate large events but because of the server's general size turning people away wouldn't work very well because then they just log out and the warm bodies in the seats number drops.

I am pretty much useless on big events. Not just because of my build but because I lag like hell during combat (and I even bought a gaming laptop!).

So even if I played a warrior character I'd not be much help.

This reply isn't much help but I agree with the spirit of the OP I just don't think it's feasible with the server population the way it currently is.

[Grim]

The not doing some events, some people do. I didn't help the slaver event not only because the DM said elves were not welcome, I would not have helped with slavery.

Occasionally events are catered to the evil alignment, case in point the banquet, it was for evil and and involved them. A group of good characters stood in the back always on guard. We waited to make our move because if we attacked at the beginning it would have ruined it for the others. As soon as I saw the set up I knew I could not ignore it. I knew it was not going to go well for good aligned PC's so just watched until others had had their fun. After it was over we engaged the vampires and undead, it ended up being a un-winnable event for us. We could not ignore the evil.

This is not a large server and excluding people may not be viable to all events. Plenty of times people that do not work together do not and end up sabotaging the events.

There have been events scaled for and made for low level PCs. If you are a low level and attend an event with high levels you can get a crap load of experience.

As a high level events are normally a deficit, a huge money sink for me.

I don't believe the server population can support allot of separate events.

If I didn't go on events with evil I would never be able to attend event,s some actions designate people alignments but no one knows for sure.

Punishing people for being high level is a little unfair they worked to get there including attending events as a low level and getting one shoted Having been here for a while this is the first time I have seen people complain about being with high levels, heck people ask me all the time to take them to orc hills mines and Sauros. The level range of this server is pretty small we have no epic levels.

[Ehrg3iz]

I say if you want to go to a event then go. There is always good RP involved when people of different alignments interact and it makes the game more enjoyable. When bad and good people are around the same event then different options come into play. A) Do we let the Fire Giant go and kill the wizard or B) Do we kill the Fire Giant and help the wizard was one event that happened because of varying options and alignments. It's always fun and I say just have fun with the server. Make some "bad" choices get a alignment change.