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Netheril : Age of Magic

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Author Topic: pvp discussion  (Read 8037 times)

Cptzambie

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pvp discussion
« on: September 17, 2018, 01:52:41 pm »
Hey everyone just wanted to start a discussion and hear some thoughts on the state of pvp on this server. I personally Feel that monster races should be able to pvp freely but have the fear of being killed on sight and i also believe that pvp should be permitted in places that dont have any npc's this would only be subdual only with full death of course having to go through a dm. Pvp can be awesome by creating some feared villains and also making some areas on the Server dangerous to trek alone. These are just my thoughts but i have seen it done on some successful servers and it usually is done well. Whats the harm in trying to make it less restrictive if it doesn't work and there are issues we can change it back.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 01:54:21 pm by Cptzambie »

Shantis

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Re: pvp discussion
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2018, 02:20:05 pm »
No pvp without a dm. Period.

I do not think the server is mature enough to handle this. And this story of "without npc around" leaves much scope for exploit.

This would create a new player category, which would specialize in upsetting and hounding players with characters who can not defend themselves by taking advantage of the absence of dms and acting in bad faith without any roleplaying.

It also gives rise to grief and toxic behavior. In my personal opinion, releasing pvp without the presence of a dm gives much scope for problems, frustrations and toxic behavior, unpleasant posture and a lot of bad situations.

And personally speaking, if someone can not be a villain by their own roleplay, in front of the dms and other players, using open pvp to hunt and kill characters without roleplay is a flawed point of argument.

Villains that depend on pvp are not villains. They are bullies because they can not be efficient, influential, capable of moving people and manipulating them. It is a character that fights because it is empty in all other fields.

This is my opinion on this. Others may think differently.

Shantis

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Re: pvp discussion
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2018, 02:27:07 pm »
And releasing a free, open pvp, would open a can of worms, because the next step would be perma without the presence of a dm. Or have a script to count how many deaths you may have before your perma.

And players who only make pvp as an asian mmo and not a roleplay server, will make the whole experience of playing more horrible for most playerbase.

Subdual mode is not perfect. And I doubt that anyone who practices pvp openly uses it on purpose. This is probably not a good idea. For various technical reasons and how to deal with the playerbase.

A pvp with subdual without dm is allowed if two players agree and activate it. Just ask. And the combat be accepted by both parties oocly. Good education and respect oocly do not prevent characters from facing each other without npcs or dms, if both parties are mature and responsible.

Another reason for this is that many people would abuse the freedom of pvp without dm and npcs to hunt and kill characters that make Crafting, killing them without warning, poping out invisible and attack, while the player have no time to react and unload the bag of materials. Or characters that all hate icly or have some pendency oocly, and go there and kill the character.

I've played on servers, where 15, 20 players have hunted one they all hated. And believe me, it's not something cool to see. The target stops playing or lives by hiding all time, losing all game fun. And whoever hunt them, does more for personal reasons, using an icly excuse to do this. No one continue to play in this type of ambient.

Really, do not think this server is mature enough to handle this kind of situation without dms. Personal opinion.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 02:34:51 pm by Shantis »

Cptzambie

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Re: pvp discussion
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2018, 02:31:09 pm »
Fair points but i disagree but thats just my opinion. its just an issue to try get a dm for every potential pvp moment and it is awkward if a dm is not on and you cant act on something your char would in char

Shantis

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Re: pvp discussion
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2018, 02:36:37 pm »
Fair points but i disagree but thats just my opinion. its just an issue to try get a dm for every potential pvp moment and it is awkward if a dm is not on and you cant act on something your char would in char

Unless it's a crazy serial killer or a perverted stalker, killing another character is something that requires motivation, opportunity, and planning. If you want to go out to kill any character that's just online, then this is not nice. So the presence of a dm is to ensure that nothing is done so out of roleplay or irresponsibly.

Another point is: If the character X and the player who controls it is respectable and responsible so that other players agree to do PvP with it or not.

It's all about respect and maturity. If the other players respect each other, they would not need the dms presence for this.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 02:38:26 pm by Shantis »

Cptzambie

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Re: pvp discussion
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2018, 02:39:03 pm »
Shantis i dont want Full death or killing to be permitted But Subdual.

Shantis

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Re: pvp discussion
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2018, 02:45:40 pm »
Shantis i dont want Full death or killing to be permitted But Subdual.

Subdual fail a lot. Personal experience.

And no way to other player know if the other side turned on the subdual before the pvp.

Subdual is ignored by spells system.

Another point is that each death without the subdual system devours xp. A lot xp. Free PvP would give an open gate for some abuses, to griefers killing one same character, making him lose level often, faster than he can recover.

And personally speaking, there are many players who suffer hate from others, and that a pvp released will make as soon as player X is online, he is hunted non-stop, taking all the fun of the game.

Really, personally speaking, I see only negative points for this, in the current server situation. Placing scripts does not teach respect and sensitivity to the fun of other players.

If character A want to "duel" with characer B, the players can share some tells and make a deal, and everyone can have fun. Without breaking the current rules. A matter of respect and being responsible with the other player.

Cptzambie

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Re: pvp discussion
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2018, 02:48:15 pm »
Fair but if subdual is indeed broken i believe the rules should be opened up if it is fixed. Roleplay servers are going to have conflict its fun but if people abuse others and or grief they will be dealt with by the dm's i am sure

Shantis

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Re: pvp discussion
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2018, 03:01:13 pm »
Fair but if subdual is indeed broken i believe the rules should be opened up if it is fixed. Roleplay servers are going to have conflict its fun but if people abuse others and or grief they will be dealt with by the dm's i am sure

This point is sensible.

Players can not get screenshot every time, and the context is not always perceived for the victim of griefing or even in the screenshots. Players who abuse within the rules of the game often happen. They make the life of the victim an icly and oocly hell, but they are smart enough to never cross the line or do the abuses openly.

The dms are dealing with dozens of things, besides dming quests and events, updating the mods and other priority situations. Sometimes, after reporting the problem, the griefer takes advantage only when the dm is offline. And it can take weeks before you collect evidence against the trouble maker.

The problem here is that no script can teach players to be responsible to each other. Or be mature enough to understand that there are limits of roleplay and actions that are icly done. And also, not always the type of fun of player A is the same as player B.

Opening pvp is something a lot more complex, and in the current state of things, in a server in beta state, with a lot of systems in a Work In progress, opening pvp withou a mature playerbase and clear, responsible behavior of the players, is a dangerous option

Sabaron

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Re: pvp discussion
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2018, 03:20:41 pm »
While I largely agree with Zambie, perhaps a middle ground would be for players who feel comfortable with PvP to put an OOC note in their character description? Something like this:

//The player of this character consents to PvP in unpopulated areas without the need for a DM presence.

You could also list the acceptable types: Subdual, Full Damage, Permadeath. Although Permadeath might require a DM no matter what, up to the team.

Galaga

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Re: pvp discussion
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2018, 07:28:58 pm »
In my humble opinion monsters should be KoS (and be able to KoS others) with no DM oversight needed.

Other PvP... ehhh you should probably have a DM to oversee it and keep it as is.

Players should never have a say in perma or not, unless they are making that decision for their own character.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 07:30:58 pm by Galaga »

Xaerien

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Re: pvp discussion
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2018, 07:31:59 pm »
The issue with unmonitored pvp is that the pvp advocates on the server are a vocal minority rather than the majority of the playerbase. The rest of the players are either indifferent on the subject, or against it. The current rules ensure those who seek pvp have established sufficient character conflict to warrant such an encounter. This creates a higher standard for the roleplay behind pvp encounters and, in my opinion, allows a better story to be told from such as opposed to outright attacking someone over a minor insult or other trivial matter. The rules also protect those, such as myself, who do not enjoy or wish to participate in pvp. I have openly stated OOC that I do not wish to participate in pvp and I rarely find it enjoyable, yet despite my wishes have been forced into such situations in the past with little to no build-up or character conflict involved. This was not fun at all, it has caused me to quit the game before. It has also shown me some people are so overeager to pvp that they ignore the OOC courtesy they should have for their fellow players. In short, I do not believe we are ready for such a change yet and at this time it would prove more detrimental than beneficial.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 07:46:49 pm by Xaerien »

MiladyMouse

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Re: pvp discussion
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2018, 07:35:15 pm »
My experience with PvP comes from another server. There, PvP has a specific set of rules that must be followed by all players. Those who abuse or do not follow the rules are punished and/or banned. And DMs are at liberty to retcon an event.

PvP does require maturity and courtesy from the player base. And a functional system. If you say subdual is broken, then it should be fixed before PvP is considered.

There can also be several type of PvP settings that could be discussed. This is the one I am familiar with:
Sparring (no loot drop, can get up as soon as downed, for when you want to spare safely with friends)
Beatdown (get beaten down, no loot drop and pc must wait a time before being able to get up)
Subdual (loot drop but no killing, and need time to get up)
Full Damage (kills PC and drops loot)

Full damage being the only mode that can end is permadeath per DM discretion.

PvP rules also need to be clear but simple. Depending how the community feels about PvP, you could open certain areas for PvP without DM supervision with restrictions to subdual and no PK. You could restrict PvP to damage only, no looting, no killing. (and no leaving in the wilderness for spawns to kill, lets have some courtesy for our fellow players). You can have monsters kill on sight or all player require dm supervision when pvp is wanted. This is a serious discussion that the community needs to have if it wants PvP.

In the end, it is at the discretion of the DM team to decide what sort of server they want to run and if they want to manage the PITA that can be PvP. I've been on all end of it (even as a DM), and it can get messy fast. But it can also be quite fun for those who enjoy this sort of conflict. Me personally, I've never been a fan of PvP and avoid it generally. Though a good spar with friend is always fun and it is a form of PvP.

Grim

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Re: pvp discussion
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2018, 09:01:17 pm »
I personally don't like or want to be a part of player disputes that need to result in PvP. Some take it to the point that they just piss off allot of people and then they get hunted down and results in perma one way or another. Disrupting and PvP just to disrupt causes allot of player resentment, and just results in people not enjoying the story and game. The only one enjoying this is the only one that enjoys the experience and results in just bulling.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 09:57:53 pm by Grim »

Ectheledhel

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Re: pvp discussion
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2018, 11:41:23 pm »
I'd love to respect peoples desires to stay clear of PvP but in my anecdotal experience the people who wish to remain outside of PvP often use this excuse to be openly IC insulting, provocative and degrading to other party while using their desire to stay clear of PvP as a screen to avoid consequence. If I wanted to trade insults in the playground like a child perhaps I would be more open to handling the situation this way but when one side wants to behave in such a way without consequence then I begin to see issues with the implementation of such a ruleset.