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« on: January 04, 2022, 06:16:35 am »
Zarakul — Today at 3:26 AM
In regards to the 12/30-31'st events on the Discord, has there been any mobilization or clarification on what is expected to happen? I know one of the critiques was that there are a lot of issues that don't get discussed in a public manner either due to a perceived lack of safety on this Discord. And not a lot has really changed on the feel side as far as I can tell, outside of being down a few players. Has anyone touched base with affected player(s) that are still active/interested to see what next steps forward look like to make sure they know that they have a voice and an impact?
Matthew "Gmork" Meier — Today at 9:35 AM
Not much time has passed for any real change in feeling to happen, such perceptions (right or wrong) need time to change. Things we have implemented since the start of the server to help such issues are systems like mod mail so the team can all see the interactions between plays and dm's which reduces instances of players saying something and it not getting passed on to the rest of the team or individual dm's giving information or advice that might not be in line with the teams vision. The issue tracker is also a big step for this as it shows exactly what reported game issues are being worked on and/or fixed as well as all the different suggestion channels we now have..(cont.)
@Zarakul
In regards to the 12/30-31'st events on the Discord, has there been any mobilization or clarification on what is expected to happen? I know one of the critiques was that there are a lot of issues that don't get discussed in a public manner either due to a perceived lack of safety on this Discord. And not a lot has really changed on the feel side as far as I can tell, outside of being down a few players. Has anyone touched base with affected player(s) that are still active/interested to see what next steps forward look like to make sure they know that they have a voice and an impact? (edited)
Matthew "Gmork" Meier — Today at 9:43 AM
As for the reaching out part of your question I did try and follow up on things that were said but I could get no names or logs of players and their issues and/or interactions with dm's. I did find that most of these referenced issues were coming from several years ago in v1 of the setting. We had a larger team then and we had no mod mail or any other ways to keep track of all issues going on. I can not find solid proof of a dm mistreating players, however a number of old dm's were removed during that time for bad behavior and other actions which can hurt a server.
[9:44 AM]
Other than that, there is not much more we can do.
[9:47 AM]
I hope this answers your question
thurgood — Today at 10:50 AM
@Zarakul We requested a sharing of knowledge, none was shared. There's not a lot that can be done in a vacuum. if anyone has knowledge of how to move forward I think we would be open to hearing it
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Zarakul — Today at 1:25 PM
I see.
Please, forgive my mistrust when I see an analog of 'we have investigated ourselves and found no wrong doing,' being used. What you were given was in confidence and, while I respect that you hold more information about what you were given than I, I personally cannot verify. If you would feel comfortable sharing what you were given with myself and, by extension, the server at large, we could perhaps see what the alleged problems were, what measures were taken, if any, to rectify the situation, and what the aftermath has been since. If we see that there's a pattern of problems that have gone unresolved, we can see which ones. I find it rarely has to do with numbers and mechanics, but the handling of a situation. Maybe we can move together from a base of equality in standing and knowledge, as players and Staff/DMs.
As such, if a Staff Member/DM would be so kind as to use the here or everyone command, I would like to offer the following to the current playerbase:
If you, or anyone who you know that has played on Netheril: Age of Magic and/or Netheril: Age of Discovery, has encountered issues in @Vyd (Durandal) 's post ( ModMail being used to start discussions and raise concerns that ultimately go nowhere, targeted abuse from one or multiple Staff Members/DMs, Story DMs no longer being in connection with players as for story lines and server decisions, active Staff/DM intervention in roleplay that may have gone as far as to break the server's own rules and non-consensually ended a player's character, active efforts to silence and delegitimize player concerns, and a noted pattern of one or all of the above. ) and you would like to share your story(ies) with the public but would like a sense of anonymity and/or community support, please send your concerns to me, a trusted person, and/or this public chat if you feel comfortable in doing so.
I will do my best efforts to collect appropriate data and provide a briefing so that both the Staff/DMs and the players can get what everyone is concerned with: The Big Picture.
Staff/DMs, if you would prefer that I drop this uninvited investigation, please voice your concerns as you would like.
[1:29 PM]
As time is always a matter of the essence and a sensible concern, the latest I will be able to accept information would be the end of January 6th at Midnight CST so that I can make a post on January 7th at roughly 5:30 PM CST. (edited)
Matthew "Gmork" Meier — Today at 1:55 PM
I don't mind you doing this. If people want to tell you their stories with corroborating evidence (chat logs and or screenshots) But there are 2 things I want to add here. Things that happened in past versions, especially ones that happened years ago and in times where we had a different team, really have no baring any more on this iteration. So much has changed for the better that doing so would only drag up issues that no longer have relevance and will do nothing good. Things relevant to our server now and since the start of our open Beta for version 2 are more then welcome.
Secondly, to put this into words that you used: Please, forgive my mistrust when I see an analog of 'Oh, I'm impartial and can judge this with an open view' being suggested. How are you going to handle this better then we have? What are you going to do with hearsay and 'he said, she said'. How will you go about dealing with some that say 'X is favored by the DM's. I know it. It's not fair' with out knowing what X has done to earn anything they have or even just a perceived favoritism that is not even accurate in any way? For example recently some one said a player was a DM favorite because of things that player had said. Things that were not true or even grounded in any reality. But it was perceived as favoritism. How will you handle things like that?
Zarakul — Today at 2:20 PM
I would like to point out that, while you did have a different and larger DM team in version one, there are a number of staff that have not changed since before then. If a concern was brought up pertaining to version one that has still not been addressed, that may be further reasoning as to why the playerbase has to come its current state and why there is a perception of distrust. I would also love to come across problems that have been mentioned and solved, as I don't feel it fair to Staff Members/DMs who may have earned praise without previously hearing it.
How am I going to handle this? I, as I'd like to make clear, have no power here. I have no claim to stake, no benefit to yield, and nothing to win in either case. Of course, I may have a bias and I'm sure it's clear that I believe that players may have been pushed to this current point. Whether or not that is true, what I will provide you should give you information enough to address other concerns, rebuild trust, open communication, and re-evaluate just what is going on with a more cohesive lens.
I will not be providing unfounded points that I cannot back up, so I do ask for your trust in at least that. If I am just given a wave of "this Staff Member/DM is X because Y" and there's no hard proof, I will at least let the entire team and playerbase know that that is a perceived problem. That way there's the opportunity for people to come forward to clarify/add proof in public if they so choose and the Staff/DM team can dispel any untrue myths that may be mixed in the negative feelings and associations. Public image, even if it's not the greatest factor, still accounts for how people approach, recommend, and experience their time here. If a person has done something worthy of being rewarded, I'm sure that person would love to be acknowledged again in an explanation for how/why they were rewarded.
In conclusion, I would like to provide my current review of the server in as much as I can so that you understand my own, current perspective:
This server has been a labor of love and it has been made very clear that that is the case. The artistry is of high quality. There are a wide array of zones and reasons to visit them. The scripted quests, while once a very rough idea, have been refined into integral cogs of the server that can provide structure and rewards for players both solo and in teams. I, personally, abhor application-limited options as I believe they are an opportunity for misuse, real or perceived, and believe better options exist to prevent abuse. That said, I am glad to see that there exists a wide variety of options to choose from as far as character creation, items, spells, etc. With all of the positive that I have encountered, It also comes with something that contrasts heavily with the passion and love visible in the product: distrust, fear, and neglect. There have been multiple occasions where there has been an issue, it was poorly handled, people left, the issue was either left alone or fixed (too little too late or without community involvement, causing its own set of issues), resentment carried over but hope keeps people around in pockets. My personal view is that, until community concerns are addressed and a player base can be re-established, it is a nice amusement park but is ultimately a disappointment in terms of a role play server. (edited)
deltaTime — Today at 2:26 PM
My opinion is not representative of the team as a whole to the best of my knowledge, but I'd rather you just play the game and enjoy yourself rather than try to spin a web and crack the case. I think that an open dialogue = good idea. Players getting in the middle where they're not needed = not
Zarakul — Today at 2:27 PM
I appreciate your opinion and I wish I could agree that an open dialogue could occur without something like this taking place. But, think of it this way: If there's nothing to crack and no threads for a web, it'll be a positive showing that things have changed for the better and people just haven't been here to see/experience it.
[2:27 PM]
Perhaps it'll drive up more players so that we can have more people to enjoy this content with!
deltaTime — Today at 2:28 PM
Nah. It's drama for no reason. Just play the game. We don't need a class action lawsuit. If you want active and interested DMs, don't bring this kind of stress imo.
Zarakul — Today at 2:28 PM
I appreciate but disagree with your opinion and welcome any further dialogue.
Matthew "Gmork" Meier — Today at 2:30 PM
What are you looking for here Zarakul? Transparency was asked for, and we are already moving ahead with that. I have gone and done what you suggested last week and tried to follow up on things. We have suggestion channels and treads and a mod mail that people can use to have monitored discussions and give feedback and even ask for stories to be run for them. We believe we are open-minded to suggestions and try to give logical explanations as to why we may or may not do something. So what is it you are wanting to achieve here? Based on your communication, it seems like you already have something in mind that will fix problems, so why not just state it rather than initiate a hunt for things that are maybe significantly outdated or provably false? Would you like monthly updates? Roadmaps? Even more surveys (we did one big one and have used it to make many changes). Do you want us to give out meta-information on plots and player actions and other intrigues so you can see behind the stage?
Zarakul — Today at 2:39 PM
In regards to my plans for this investigation: I'm not sure exactly what I'm asking for on the DM side just yet. It would be unwise to suggest any sort of changes before we have any data that points to what's in need of changing. I would much rather have an easy time discovering that there's no real issues so that that is a message that can spread and so that I can enjoy this content with more players, preferably those in my time-zone and preferably with players who feel comfortable and equal to the Staff and DM team.
What I'm looking for in general: Pretty much the above point about being able to play this content with people. But I'd also like to ensure that good content is matched with a good team. I would prefer not to have to interface with someone listed as a Team Leader who has, within less than a week, aggressively went after a number of users over a misinterpretation, derided players with a sexist term when there were a number of people who disagreed with them, who has responded with disrespect to a civil concern. And while that's a clear and pointed remark regarding @deltaTime 's behavior, it's also the pattern therein where it seems there has been no accountability for his making the players feel abused and unwanted. I'd like to see something done about that so that I personally can feel more comfortable offering my opinions and perspectives on the matters at hand.
[2:44 PM]
As for your other suggestions - I can address those individually. I think monthly updates are a silly thing to expect. You guys are doing this, as far as I can tell, on a voluntary status. Do it at your own pace and have fun with it! No sense in burning out and creating a false sense of urgency. Roadmaps might be useful if you don't already have them, but I think there's usually two forms of that if any - a public and private. It's up to you on whether or not to use one but I can't see it hurting communication any. Surveys may or may not be useful. If all of that information is just going back into the trove of DMs who the players do not trust/do not expect any change from, it would be a moot point. If the data from the surveys was used to direct where to build/what to do, that sounds very cool and I think it's a feature you guys should celebrate! But more is probably not needed? Meta-information on plots does sound intriguing. I think a few general hints/beats/clues that players can access would definitely invite them to become involved with them. I don't think it's wise to reveal your BBEG on day one or to give away twists, though. But if you can connect the server's story with the story of individual players, I think you'd have players much more willing to be active and participate in plots when their own are being advanced at the same time!
Matthew "Gmork" Meier — Today at 2:51 PM
I see what you are saying. It seems like a team member can say what they like in here with out consequences. I understand how this might come about as l well, but I can assure you it is not true. We have our own ways of handling such things and reprimands are given and warnings issued. I can tell you the last thing any DM wants is a dressing down by (unspecified DM) as it is not nice. But it happens. However, such actions will never be done in a public way. You must understand that, yes?
[2:52 PM]
We are held accountable by our own team members
Zarakul — Today at 2:57 PM
Oh, of course! I am all for the praise-in-public and correct-in-closet methods. When they're proving to be effective. I, however, cannot see any sort of effect taking place here and the pattern that even you are pointing out is continuing to hold true. Usually, in this case, when a person holding a position of representation slips up and makes a fool out of themselves, they also come out, apologize about their behavior, and express how they intend to better communicate moving forward.
I have seen a few parallels passed around that 'You don't tell your boss what to do when he's discussing policy' and that you're hiding all of this sensitive stuff behind closed doors as if the players aren't capable of seeing it and expressing their concerns in a constructive manner. Staff Members/DMs are not above, greater than, more powerful, or otherwise more important than players when it comes to roleplay servers. If a roleplay server has no roleplayers, it is as it stands: a (very well put together) amusement park.
It might be time to put down the Gygaxian DM screen and embrace that you've got a lot of people who are very much excited about things, that want to experience the content that you and other Staff/DMs have put together, that want to help build a story that not only they get to contribute to but that they feel contributes to their own stories. It's time to stop keeping the purple names on a pedestal and let players back in so we can work together to make a server worth roleplaying in.
Matthew "Gmork" Meier — Today at 3:10 PM
Alright. We will take on board what you have said here, we will discuss it and come up with ideas on how to move forward and then, in a weeks time we will make a forum announcement (using the forums as so it keeps main clear. Previous feed back has told us not every one wants to read through this sort of thing in main) giving every one a chance to read what we have come up with. Thank you for your time and input. It will be put to good use.
Zarakul — Today at 3:15 PM
Of course and I greatly appreciate your civil approach to this. I want to reiterate something publicly, though:
To all DMs and Story tellers and Staff Members, Coders, etc. who have worked hard to create Netheril, from version 0 all the way to the current v2 beta, I do appreciate the work you have done. I have enjoyed my first steps in Netheril way back when, I have had bittersweet steps recently, and I hope that, with what comes, we can have a whole lot more players in here to show their love and appreciation of what you guys have done and to help move those plots and threads you want to move along more than just with an event announcement.
To any DMs, Staff Members, Story tellers, etc. who have made poor decisions and want to rectify them so that we can all proceed forward into a brighter future, I am open and willing to conversate however briefly or at length and I hope the rest of the server is too. I am not here to, as they say, piss in your cheerios.
Matthew "Gmork" Meier — Today at 3:16 PM
Thank you
Zarakul — Today at 3:17 PM
And thank you.
Fiverine (Eliezra) — Today at 3:43 PM
I can only speak for myself here, of course. I have not agreed with every single decision the DM team has made in my 3+ years here, and I have even butted heads with a couple of DMs on rare occasion. But not once have I ever felt I was being personally abused or that my voiced concerns were completely dismissed.
I cannot say the same for every other server I've played on.
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[3:45 PM]
And tbh, I would much rather see this channel spammed with people talking about cool stuff they've done or seen IG, their funny mishaps and other fun stuff rather than metaphorical navel-gazing and picking of scabs.
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Zarakul — Today at 3:46 PM
The true goal that all general channels strive for, really.
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and have fun!
