Netheril : Age of Magic
Player Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Xaerien on October 27, 2019, 09:53:20 pm
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After some discussion on this topic today in Discord, I have decided to create this poll so such discussion on the subject is not lost.
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There should be separate, non-instanced versions of the quest areas. It allows for roleplay and it can be done easily enough by not spawning chests and treasure troves in those zones. It also allows people to farm areas when there is no one on, because this is not exactly a high-population server. A lot of us just sit around waiting for someone to exist in the same time zone.
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There should be separate, non-instanced versions of the quest areas. It allows for roleplay and it can be done easily enough by not spawning chests and treasure troves in those zones. It also allows people to farm areas when there is no one on, because this is not exactly a high-population server. A lot of us just sit around waiting for someone to exist in the same time zone.
I agree and it also allows people to RP in those areas, for example, Zazie is an archeologist and she needs a DM to allow her to go into the Temple of Doom to be able to RP as an archeologist.
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Other, Please Explain: If one is concerned about taking lower PCs to an area, then lock areas behind a minimum level, only. Meaning once you reach said level, you can enter freely - with ones that make sense. Like say the graveyards. You need to be level 5 (just giving an example) otherwise it says, "you're in need of more training before safely entering here" and then you can RP off of that.
If you're not worried about that aspect: Open all areas to everyone. People will RP why they're there and what they're doing from then on.
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Other, Please Explain: If one is concerned about taking lower PCs to an area, then lock areas behind a minimum level, only. Meaning once you reach said level, you can enter freely - with ones that make sense. Like say the graveyards. You need to be level 5 (just giving an example) otherwise it says, "you're in need of more training before safely entering here" and then you can RP off of that.
If you're not worried about that aspect: Open all areas to everyone. People will RP why they're there and what they're doing from then on.
This would also work :)
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I will point out that, if there are separate, non-instanced versions of the quest areas with NO locks or limits, then people will farm these areas and that will completely defeat the purpose of the server's current design.
I like the server's current design. I like that I can only help certain NPCs so many times (before I out-level the quests). I like that I actually need to find other characters in-game to do things sometimes.
Other, Please Explain: If one is concerned about taking lower PCs to an area, then lock areas behind a minimum level, only. Meaning once you reach said level, you can enter freely - with ones that make sense. Like say the graveyards. You need to be level 5 (just giving an example) otherwise it says, "you're in need of more training before safely entering here" and then you can RP off of that.
I like this.
The XP system already lowers XP for characters whose level is higher than the CR of the monsters in an area. So, it's not like leveling is a huge concern if a level 14 takes a level 5 to the Graveyards. :)
Edit: However, the problem I see with this also that folks will drag their friends along and folks won't actually be earning that quest XP; they'll just be along for the ride while the higher level kills all the spawns.
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I voted no just to stop people farming thousands of gold and unbalancing the server on quests they dont struggle on because of them being higher then the quest lvl. Sorry if this is too harsh but its true
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LET.
PEOPLE.
PLAY.
TOGETHER.
Is the TL;DR of my point. I would like to see maximum levels removed from all quests. It would allow people to help new players without creating a separate character. It would allow people who want to be there for RP reasons, actually join and participate. Quests give you lower and lower XP amounts as you rise in comparative level, anyway, so it's not like people are going to be farming purely for the paltry XP reward.
People come to this server to play with other PEOPLE. Honestly, the quest design is good for most dungeons, but it is not what brings people to the server. People are here to roleplay, and anything that stops people from doing things together is bad for the server. If XP farming is what you're worried about, have people above the level cap gain no XP from completion. So, they can help a new person out, or train a young warrior in the ways of the blade, or characters that aren't min/maxed can contribute to groups without feeling overpowered.
The restrictions might be necessary if this was a very populous game like WoW or FFXIV, but it isn't. We get the kind of people who want to share an experience with others... the power players don't stick around; there are plenty of servers that cater to that kind of play.
I voted no just to stop people farming thousands of gold and unbalancing the server on quests they dont struggle on because of them being higher then the quest lvl. Sorry if this is too harsh but its true
There are FAR easier ways to make gold than killing wasps for 300gp each run. Also, what does having a lot of gold really DO for you on this server? Most gear isn't bought... it's dropped from quests or given as reward for participating in server events.
I think you will find that the kind of person that will go to great lengths for levels or wealth can do it easier on other servers, and will not play here for long.
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By the way we have exploration areas for a reason im sure the Dm's are working on more as we discuss this. I would rather more exploration areas then every quest open that is just silly.
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There should be separate, non-instanced versions of the quest area
Are these not what we call 'Exploration areas' ? i.e Ant Hill, Lava Cave, Orc Hill and Mines, Crash Site, Old Fort ( some examples of Exploration areas )
The problem with opening quest areas up is the level of the spawns and treasure to some extent. An example is Fruit bats, low level quest and would be pointless for a high level to do it. Another might be Pumpkin Goblins too hard for a low level but just right for a mid range character and of course we have those Higher level quest that in general you have to travel to, that are designed to test and have high level spawns in them ... where a low level or mid level character would be unable to complete the quest by themselves.
These quests are also dependant on the group and mixture of character types. Of course a low level could go on these quests if they where able to do so and soak up the XP making their stories and journey lessened because of it.
I understand the point of RP but believe we have many other options outside of quests to continue your stories and RP.
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I am personally curious then - you say there are many opportunists for continuing stories and RP, which is very true. What of the times that no one is on though or no DM is currently free and you'd like to continue your story by fighting undead in a crypt.... oh, but look, I can't because some random NPC says he doesn't need my help. Why would that stop me from destroying undead though? Then again, life is just hard for a PC that doesn't want to wander around and kill things for fun.
I personally always enjoyed being logged on for hours at a time, doing something, but right now I've found I gravitate towards logging on if there's people either Teuivae knows or there's definite RP to be found. Otherwise I'm just sitting in the town square and putting on a movie. Don't get me wrong though, this is just another viewpoint - I'm truly having a blast here and this is BY FAR my favorite server to have RPed on in a very long time. I'm not going anywhere, regardless of the decision. I'd just log on a bit more if there were more places to fight undead and things to do, is all.
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There are multiple exploreable areas focused on undead as well though? Do some of you feel that there is an issue with the current exploreable areas in terms of variety, risk or reward (whether that is xp, gold, consumeable or loot)?
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Edit: However, the problem I see with this also that folks will drag their friends along and folks won't actually be earning that quest XP; they'll just be along for the ride while the higher level kills all the spawns.
Exactly this, it's fine saying that you personally won't do this but the majority of players most likely will. And nothing stops a high level player from just giving people a free ride through all the low quests risk free. That's the key part here, quests of all levels need to have risk of some sort. Opening them to all levels completely removes that.
There are multiple exploreable areas focused on undead as well though? Do some of you feel that there is an issue with the current exploreable areas in terms of variety, risk or reward (whether that is xp, gold, consumeable or loot)?
To me, this is the real question that we should be asking. Quests are there for people to group up for but ideally there should be plenty to do for every level. Hence the exploration/open areas. Do we need more of them, greater rewards or larger areas? Because that's what it sounds like 8)
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Actually retyping something....
Essentially my personal issue and it may only be because I'm playing an exalted character that doesn't go off to kill goblins just because they have a tribe in the woods. She normally has no reason to explore and no map or known knowledge of the world around her, there's no motivation to go out and explore. The only source she has is fellow Order members (which is two right now) to even bother trying to find places to explore and train.
I don't see the big issue honestly. A higher level PC can always run a lower PC through an exploration area and get tons of XP anyways - it happened once with the Asylum where all Teuivae did was stand around and get way more XP than any quest I've done. So opening a quest area wouldn't matter for the lower PC. If you're concerned about higher PCs getting XP from quests, just make a cut off for XP then?
Exmaple:
Kalianda - Hadrian Southbank -Warehouse - lvl 4-10 - Party Req 2-6
Let's say we turned it into: Kalianda - Hadrian Southbank -Warehouse - lvl 4+ - Party Req 2-6
Well, let's say a level 15 PC takes a level 5 PC. Well, the reward for the level 5 PC won't be much higher than if a level 10 PC went along. They'd still get the same XP and same XP reward out of it (say 200 GP / 200 XP). And you could have the script just say if they're higher than level 10, they only get GP rewards.
Furthermore, you could just open up the area without the quest being enabled at all. What would that do to balance? The enemies would stay the same, even the boss potentially. Then what? ... how in the world does it unbalance anything?
And nothing stops a high level player from just giving people a free ride through all the low quests risk free. That's the key part here, quests of all levels need to have risk of some sort. Opening them to all levels completely removes that.
Isn't this already true for exploration areas? Neasa took Teuivae to the Crypt of Molander (or something) and if she wanted, could've killed everything completely risk free for Teuivae. So it's already something that's possible anyways. And Neasa could do a lot better and get Teuivae way more XP (if we were that type of player).
Anyways, I'm just not following the logic.
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I agree with Briar rose. In the time I've been in the server this is how i get levels the most from best rate(most levels in least time);
1-- Random exploration with high level people.; They simply have higher exp reward and gold reward for following someone around who can pick up a massive amount of junk to sell for 200g each.
2-- DM events; you get decent exp as normally DM events are medium to high level mobs plus the ending exp gift for doing it. DM's are also very kind and tend to give some of the most coolest and interesting randomized items you cant find elsewhere.
3-- quests; you can find plenty of cool things but normally it requires a demanded 'under this level' for you to get it. For instance the giant wasp quest; it has MANY useful things in it that anyone could use, but with RP, DM quests, and typical gameplay you end up PASSING it before you can actually get the items you need in it. You really only get the exp of something in your range inside of it which is around 16-40 exp depending on the monsters level. its basictly a weaker DM event with a time frame on it. I've heard a few rumours that sometimes someone will willingly die when questing just so they can get EXP loss so they can keep trying to get items in the quest.
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The more I think about it, the more the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.
What a lot of folks don't think about is BALANCE. If Quest Areas are opened, even if it were just removing maximum levels, then the trajectory at which people can level goes up expotentially. That's bad. Why is that bad? Because right now, quite frankly, we have a pretty solid leveling curve that allows folks to NOT level to maximum overnight. People have to earn their levels, and that makes them feel accomplished.
Now, you can disregard that idea all you want, but I've played on servers where fast leveling is a thing. What happens? 9/10, people get bored once they reach maximum level because they feel as if there's now - at maximum level - nothing to do. Removing the level restrictions from quest areas will NOT fix that. It won't. Eventually, if you don't RP and get involved in server plots, you will be bored, no matter how many goodies there are for players.
For instance the giant wasp quest; it has MANY useful things in it that anyone could use, but with RP, DM quests, and typical gameplay you end up PASSING it before you can actually get the items you need in it. You really only get the exp of something in your range inside of it which is around 16-40 exp depending on the monsters level. its basictly a weaker DM event with a time frame on it. I've heard a few rumours that sometimes someone will willingly die when questing just so they can get EXP loss so they can keep trying to get items in the quest.
Sounds like an issue with that particular quest, NOT an issue with the quest system as a whole. It also sounds like you just reported an exploit. ;)
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True, if humans don't have goals, they tend to feel lost / bored.
The rest of the post, I'd kindly ask that you back it up with logic. The "more you think about it" is not an argument that provides any objectionable evidence to the contrary. ^_^ Perhaps provide math, as it's extremely objectionable as long as it follows sound logic. I can also provide math, if it's requested and propose trajectories in leveling based off of my logic. Actually, I'll do that now!
Proposed Trajectory as it is, assumptions / baselines:
*Average of 15 XP / kill
*Monster count per dungeon: 20
*Average time in dungeon: 20 minutes / once a reset (when alone)
*Quest reward: 300
*Quests are locked to certain level ranges
*Higher PCs cannot come into quests for aid
*Higher PCs can come into exploration areas for aid
*Not counting DM quests / plots / XP
*Average tick of 15 XP / 15 minutes
Proposed Trajectory with minimum level, assumptions / baselines:
*Average of 15 XP / kill
*Monster count per dungeon: 20
*Average time in dungeon: 20 minutes / once a reset (when alone)
*Quest reward: 300
*Quests are locked to certain level ranges
*Higher PCs can come into quests for aid
*Higher PCs can come into exploration areas for aid
*Not counting DM quests / plots / XP
*Average tick of 15 XP / 15 minutes
Here are the formulas I used:
k = kill XP, m = monster count, a = quest reward, t = time to complete, c = XP tick
XP / min during dungeons/quests (remember, this is once a reset): ((15 <k> * 20 <m> + 300 <a>) / 20 <t>) + (15 <c> / 20) = 30.75 XP
XP / min during RP: (15 <c> / 15) = 1 XP
XP / min during exploration: (15 <k> / 2 <takes half the time to find monsters>) + (15 <c> / 20) = 8.25 XP
XP / min during higher explorations: (40 <k> / 2 <takes half the time to find monsters>) + (15 <c> / 20) = 20.75 XP
If you did 3 quests a day, no higher help, and played 5 hours a day only killing things:
Time per day = 300 minutes.
3 quests would total (30.75 * 20 min = 615) = 1845 XP. Take that from 300 minutes for 240 minutes. The rest would be 8.25 / minute = 1980 XP. The end of day, you'd have 3825 XP.
If we use level 9 to level 10 as a baseline, you need a total of 9,000 XP. Meaning you can level to level 10 in 3 days. This is the heart of the argument.
If you did all the quests a day, no higher help outside dungeons, and played 5 hours a day only killing things:
Time per day = 300 minutes.
15 quests would total (30.75 * 10 min = 615) = 9225 XP. Take that from 300 minutes for 150 minutes. The rest would be 8.25 / minute = 1980 XP. The end of day, you'd have 11205 XP.
If we use level 9 to level 10 as a baseline, you need a total of 9,000 XP. Meaning you can level to level 10 in 1 day with 2205 spillover.
If you did 3 quests a day, higher help during exploration only, and played 5 hours a day only killing things:
Time per day = 300 minutes.
3 quests would total (30.75 * 20 min = 615) = 1845 XP. Take that from 300 minutes for 240 minutes. The rest would be 20.75 / minute = 4980 XP. The end of day, you'd have 6825 XP.
If we use level 9 to level 10 as a baseline, you need a total of 9,000 XP. Meaning you can level to level 10 in 2 days. This is the heart of the argument.
If you did all the quests a day, higher help during exploration and dungeons, and played 5 hours a day only killing things:
Time per day = 300 minutes.
15 quests would total (30.75 * 10 min = 615) = 9225 XP. Take that from 300 minutes for 150 minutes. The rest would be 20.75 / minute = 3113 XP. The end of day, you'd have 12338 XP.
If we use level 9 to level 10 as a baseline, you need a total of 9,000 XP. Meaning you can level to level 10 in 1 day with 3338 spillover.
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With the math out of the way, I definitely see the concern (Also note the average of 15 XP / kill isn't even exactly what I've ran into - it's more like 8-10 for me). However I still would like to find a way to open up dungeons for explorations for PCs like Zazie or being able to go into a crypt for PCs like Teuivae. So here's my simple compromise to both parties:
TL;DR
Leave quests alone but allow players to enter the instances without requiring the quest to enter. The XP amount would be no different than exploration areas and without that sweet quest XP reward, the XP / min goes back down to exploration areas (or equal to dense exploration areas). This way the XP / minutes stays about the same as it is now but allows PCs to explore quest dungeons without quest rewards.
Just add a latch that says, "if PC has quest, only those with the same quest enter the same instance" to stop any sort of loop holes of higher PCs entering the same instance as a questing PC. A higher PC could still take them to an area to "train" and yet even have a reason IC to say, "you must do this quest on your own, prove to me that you've been paying attention".
(I spent 3,600 seconds on this, don't let it flop!)
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Leaving aside the topic of opening quest for the moment. I would like to get an understanding of why players do not want to do the exploration areas.
Is there a reason for this. Is it that it lacks rewards, XP or loot or is it because of some other reason. Because we have a lot of these areas in the mod currently that can be done with a group or solo. So I think this is the biggest question I have is why they are not being used because they are there for this reason so it can be inclusive to everyone no matter on levels.
I would love to hear thoughts on this.
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Some things that are coming in and will slowly be rolled out as time permits. These things will be added to existing quests and exploration areas as well as the new ones.
-Movement skills for traversing difficult areas (think climb checks, balance checks, jump checks, escape checks (for getting through tight spots)) We have some now, but there is an extensive update to add that will add a lot more interesting functionality)
- Descriptive Skill Trigger. These are invisible triggers that can roll any skill check, any ability check rolled blind so the player does not know the DC. (If you fail a check, you do not even know that a check occurred) On a success, they can either give a descriptive text (detail depending on what you rolled), reveal an object, item or creature as well as give out XP.
-The new rnd loot generation system will let us add a chance of a 'boss' creature spawning. These bosses will have a rnd chance to spawn a special magical item on death. These will only appear in exploration areas or overland areas.
In regards to something that caught my eye here:
Posted by: Briar_Rose
you'd like to continue your story by fighting undead in a crypt.... oh, but look, I can't because some random NPC says he doesn't need my help. Why would that stop me from destroying undead though? Then again, life is just hard for a PC that doesn't want to wander around and kill things for fun.
I'm not sure exactly what you want. You don't want to wander around and kill things for fun, but opening up quest areas will let you in to kill stuff... Also, you said that you don't want to go out and kill goblins just because they are there, but you want to go in and kill wasps because they are there.
Is what you want an NPC to go and tell you do things? That is, if an NPC directs you to an exploration area and tells you to kill things, then you will do it? Because we can definitely aid NPCs that ask you to go do things that are not part of the quest system.
Overall, the quest system is designed to be the way it is to control the story and make sure that it is a challenge for the level of the players. It is there as a means to replicate the DnD feel of a DM run story. To have people in it that are outside the level range enter defeats the purpose of the system. To put this into PnP confines, as a DM you are not going to try and run an adventure for your 1st level players that are made for levels 10 - 16 and your not going to run an adventure for your players who are level 10+ that is made for level 1s. It would not be fun for the players.
So to compensate for this we add in areas for you to make up your own stories about (exploration areas) where you can gather your friends and go and see if you can find the 'Lost Sword of Destiny!' even if you know there is no such thing. You never know, a DM might take notice and actually create more of a story for you while you are doing it.
When I jump on to DM (and do not have a specific quest to run) the first thing I do is jump to players out and about to see what they are up to. Then into quest areas that have players in them and then finally to people in player hub areas to hand out RP XP. If you are out and about then there is more of a chance that I will run something off the cuff that could lead to something much more involved down the track.
Anyway, I will end this with my personal opinion (which may or may not be that of other team members): Scripted quests should remain as they are for the reasons I stated above but also because it will take a lot of time and effort to change it. Time and effort that would be better spent working on new and fun things for players.
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Note: this is just regarding my PC, not anything else that was said. :)
I never mentioned wasps? Unless you're making the leap to the wasp quest. Teuivae isn't going to kill them simply because they're there... she did the quest because an NPC said their home was infested and it was causing them to essentially be homeless, so she went with purpose.
Like there are orcs out there, but she won't march into their own camp without reason. But this is probably an issue only unique to my PC. Most people would go to the orc camp if they can just because they're orcs. And it has to be more than "please go kill orcs".
Honestly even with wasps she'd be inclined to try and get a druids aid to remove them rather then kill them, but that would ruin the quest... because she'd want a permanent solution to it, so I don't pursue those things as a player for a reason.
Also my choice is self inflicted. I choose to play an exalted PC. No one forced it.
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There are a few things that cannot really be listed as simple poll options, but here is what I believe should be available:
1. Even if quest areas are not available or opened up to non-instanced players, please provide exploration areas that touch on similar themes. The graveyard in Southbank is a good example, where an undead-hating character can go knock some loosely-contained brains around. I do not know if there is a quest area there, but perhaps keep one mausoleum as a quest and set up another that is open to explore for the same level range.
2. Some safe roads. I understand that the world is dangerous, but it seems counter-intuitive that bandits, wild animals, hags, and troglodytes would band together to jump any poor soul that dares to wander too far east of the farm lands of Hadrian. The roads should be somewhat safe in most places that you travel; shortcuts would be dangerous. Another example is the area north of Sullivan's Port; why are there so many hostile goblinoids right outside of Sullivan's gates, when they know they are just going to get butchered by some vaguely irate minotaur or bloodthirsty gnoll that passes by?
3. Non-hostile exploration and lore zones. Along the same lines as the safe roads, there are surely some places that are simply too hard to get to or too far away from any possible profit or raid. Scenic areas, completely abandoned tombs, gorgeous caverns (until you go too deep and wind up in the Underdark), and other such locations would be wonderful to have and can serve as potential roleplay scenarios as well as free territories for DMs and EMs to spice up an adventure a la random encounters. That usually-empty elven ruin might one day be home to a group of hapless grave robbers hoping that other looters that got there first left something behind. These areas would also make for wonderful story locations and server lore; surely that same elven ruin could have once been a bustling trade village where the elves first taught the Netherese magic before they discovered the Nether Scrolls, and they abandoned it shortly after out of fear of mankind's hubris. Or maybe it was just a former outpost that watched the hordes of the orcs before it was overrun some day. Lore!
It is just a few ideas to open up areas that do not require the slaughter of dozens just because someone wants to travel.
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1. Even if quest areas are not available or opened up to non-instanced players, please provide exploration areas that touch on similar themes. The graveyard in Southbank is a good example, where an undead-hating character can go knock some loosely-contained brains around. I do not know if there is a quest area there, but perhaps keep one mausoleum as a quest and set up another that is open to explore for the same level range.
Can definately look at doing up some things like this for sure.
2. Some safe roads. I understand that the world is dangerous, but it seems counter-intuitive that bandits, wild animals, hags, and troglodytes would band together to jump any poor soul that dares to wander too far east of the farm lands of Hadrian. The roads should be somewhat safe in most places that you travel; shortcuts would be dangerous. Another example is the area north of Sullivan's Port; why are there so many hostile goblinoids right outside of Sullivan's gates, when they know they are just going to get butchered by some vaguely irate minotaur or bloodthirsty gnoll that passes by?
This suggestion here is already being worked on and we are looking to move back some of the road spawn in some areas.
3. Non-hostile exploration and lore zones. Along the same lines as the safe roads, there are surely some places that are simply too hard to get to or too far away from any possible profit or raid. Scenic areas, completely abandoned tombs, gorgeous caverns (until you go too deep and wind up in the Underdark), and other such locations would be wonderful to have and can serve as potential roleplay scenarios as well as free territories for DMs and EMs to spice up an adventure a la random encounters. That usually-empty elven ruin might one day be home to a group of hapless grave robbers hoping that other looters that got there first left something behind. These areas would also make for wonderful story locations and server lore; surely that same elven ruin could have once been a bustling trade village where the elves first taught the Netherese magic before they discovered the Nether Scrolls, and they abandoned it shortly after out of fear of mankind's hubris. Or maybe it was just a former outpost that watched the hordes of the orcs before it was overrun some day. Lore!
This also is a great idea and one we would like to add in as well for players. It is on the todo list.
But a new thread with some ideas on what you all would like to see in regards to this would be a great help to the team. If someone would like to make one that would be great otherwise I will do one tomorrow (when its not so late) and we can get a discussion going on it.
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To answer your question, ElvenStarr, people don't do the exploration areas because there's often very little to gain from doing them. Very few areas generate loot beyond the very small amount dropped from monsters. Orc Hills has chests with loot in them, but considering the challenge level of the area it isn't much. I can't think of any other examples of areas that have any kind of meaningful loot. After 15 monsters no longer award xp. The exploration markers were good for some areas but they aren't repeatable.
When dying loses you hours worth of time spent doing the quests you have access to, and that's assuming you get a raise or resurrection and aren't taking the full hit, there's no incentive to go out and engage these areas beyond doing them to experience the encounter. Many areas are a blast to check out, but once you've experienced them the imbalance of risk v. reward discourages going back.
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I think many people are missing the point.
Opening quest areas to exploration will not allow a high level to drag a low level through it and allow them to complete their quest.
Leave the instanced quest system in place. When you take the quest then the quest loot and quest appropriate monsters spawn within an instance that only those with the quest can enter.
If you don't take the quest and just enter the area freely, then the quest loot won't spawn and you can put monsters in there that might make sense to see after someone has already done the quest. Broken chests with a little coin that might have been "missed by the quester" and monsters that might have moved in to take advantage of the area having been cleaned out by the quest groups who did the quests in the instances.
These quest areas are some great areas and doing it this way will give them double duty and allow them to be enjoyed by characters who have out leveled the quest itself as well as characters who might have done the quest but go back before reset and RP taking care of other issues.
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The transitions are not standard NWN transitions. They are NQS transitions, specifically liked to our quest system to perform the checks needed on the entering player and then to assign that player to a new instance. To try and insert another check and then have it instance a different 'finished quest area' and to then write all the information needed to the appropriate tables in the database would mean breaking down the NQS system and rewriting large chunks of it. It's not a simple task. It would be like taking your 4 cylinder care to a mechanic and saying 'hey, can you chuck in another 2 cylinders for me?' It's just not practical.
I feel that all that can be said on this topic has been said, yes? I'll give it 24 hrs and then lock it unless something else that is viable is brought up. Sound good?
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Okay, thank you all for the discussion. We have gotten some great ideas from this and we will be trying to get them into game as soon as possible.