Netheril : Age of Magic

Player Forums => V2 Beta Feedback and Bugs => Topic started by: Calabask on June 14, 2018, 04:03:09 pm

Title: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Calabask on June 14, 2018, 04:03:09 pm
Do you believe it is? If you don't think so at early levels, keep in mind when you hit 10, and above, you can easily lose a week or more worth of XP, and in some cases, from one death, can lose over a /months/ worth of XP. Not everyone has the time and inclination to grind out the XP they lose, and when you get into the teens, if they die and lose XP, grinding becomes something even harder as there are only a few quests to give XP.

Additionally, I do not believe the current system encourages RP in the least, it, in my opinion, causes there to be less with people just grouping up to grind XP which may be IC or OOC. There are alternatives. Some people have suggested Arelith's system. Another system I saw that worked well was a system that prevented you from getting hunting XP for a number of hours equal to your level, but you could still get DM XP, and Fairy XP.

Also, I firmly believe raises and ressurects from players should not give an XP penalty, or from the priest who charges 6k gold to raise someone. 6k is a fuckton of gold enough, let alone the person on the recieving end losing XP.

Comment below.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Eternally_Faithful on June 14, 2018, 04:08:42 pm
I second, third and fourth this, going from less then 4k to 9, down to 700 till lvl 8 because a bugbear chieftain managed a crit...it hurts, it sucks and the only response for it is to suck it up and move on. Or go see if X will oocly grind you up. Yep...these are the basic answers...I still say the Arelith system, while many might be a bit picky on it, would solve SO much of this....massively lower the xp cost, I would love to lose all gold im carrying and a low amount of xp instead if self raising, and instead I get x IG hours of res sickness if I self raised, 1hp with others just using a raise scroll..no xp cost so I still have to heal up...and full health with a full Resurrection.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: eKross on June 14, 2018, 04:17:27 pm
I'd be down for even heftier xp cost on death, if it was temporary and last even up to a day. maybe prevent the character from gaining non dm xp during it too.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Verk on June 14, 2018, 04:24:55 pm
Not punishing enough imo
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Rose on June 14, 2018, 04:39:22 pm
Death was already reduced in penalty a lot. It is still able to be felt, but isn't crippling. I can't see how it can be reduced much more than it is already and not make something as serious as DEATH feel trivialized. I wouldn't like it personally. At least not with our magic level- but that's a whole other topic.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Maggers on June 14, 2018, 04:41:53 pm
For me it is fine as is. I'd prefer harsher as I want death to mean something. But I think this is a good compramise as it is.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: eKross on June 14, 2018, 05:16:43 pm
I'd be down for even heftier xp cost on death, if it was temporary and last even up to a day. maybe prevent the character from gaining non dm xp during it too.

That was an awful sentence.
I'd be down for characters to temporarily lose levels for a long duration, preventing xp gains, except for dm xp. Maybe increase the duration of your death penalty the higher the level of the player is.

Later on when event xp is the only thing you get and you're not actively playing, you'll easily lose a month or more of progress even when resurrected, especially if you don't grind.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Snacks on June 14, 2018, 05:45:33 pm
I actually really like this idea. What if dying meant you took a penalty to levels for a set period of OOG time. Make it so that if you want to remove it before the duration is up you have to pay XP, otherwise you're out of the fight for a couple days.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: smirnoff on June 14, 2018, 06:06:01 pm
Supernatural level drain that cannot be dispelled until a certain time in the future instead of XP loss perhaps?

Or divine intervention to reduce or eliminate XP loss from resurrection/respawn. Sort of like a get out of jail free card. This could be a "shard of insertdivinename", collected through pleasing the divines (random quest reward or DM loot).

Death must have meaning, however if it is too punishing then it definitely leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Most players would like to reach the maximum level in the shortest possible time. Any setback (even if it is insignificant) can delay your leveling process by days/weeks.
Death system is hard to balance and I don't think it is possible to please everyone. To some people the journey is more important than the destination, to others the journey must be quick and effortless and the destination is what really matters.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Rose on June 14, 2018, 06:08:20 pm
So with the level losses from death being temporary but returned over time suggestion... Like a full respawn takes away 15% xp now but maybe the xp tics become 100 xp until it gives back the 15% that was lost then goes back to normal before you died. If done that way, if I am understanding the suggestion correctly eKross, death is not a permanent loss but a temporary one. That'll end up drastically raising the server overall level as a result and would make raises and resurrections more of a waiting convenience since no xp is actually lost in the end, so that's something to consider.

Example, you died. Your respawn/raise/res caused you to lose 10k xp. You'll gain a new xp tic for 100 each, until that provides you 10k. That will require 100 tics, which is 16.6 hours of active play time.


I don't know how I feel about that or if I like it, but that would be one way to implement the suggestion posed.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Snacks on June 14, 2018, 06:15:25 pm
I'm not seeing a problem with this, since I think the only thing that changes in that equation is instead of spending the time you lost grinding trying to grind out more xp, you're spending it hopefully having meaningful interactions and rp with other people on server. Both are a time setback, but the temp loss would mean there isn't as much of a gap between the haves and have nots (characters who are built optimally versus not).

In the end it all comes down to time spent. I'd rather spend my time doing stuff like crafting or RPing with folks than going back out and having to grind it all back again.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Shantis on June 14, 2018, 06:32:05 pm
The current crafting system only benefits production of armor and metal weapons. All other systems are not yet incorporated.

If the other crafting types were active, characters of all classes, not just those with STR something or spell of bull could take advantage of this, occupying themselves while recovering xp lost. The problem is not to lose xp, is to keep busy while recovering. Quests, content and roleplay help. But the system of craft and treasure hunting needs polishing

Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Cptzambie on June 14, 2018, 09:53:18 pm
Death needs to be something that is feared and the game will become too easy if the xp penalty is tiny so please dont make it any smaller.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: ToxicWrench on June 15, 2018, 01:18:58 pm
Not to mention if XP was cut off for a set amount of time be it a few days or whatever, many people will just not play until it's back, which is thd last thing we'd want. Personally I am pretty happy where it is now, amd watching everyone play it seems most people have no problems retaining those higher levels.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Calabask on June 15, 2018, 02:31:10 pm
Not to mention if XP was cut off for a set amount of time be it a few days or whatever, many people will just not play until it's back, which is thd last thing we'd want. Personally I am pretty happy where it is now, amd watching everyone play it seems most people have no problems retaining those higher levels.

That's because they don't take risks because they literally can't afford to. /ONE/ death can wipe away three weeks or a month or even two months worth of work. /ONE./ And I garuntee you the people who voted yes and they might leave for it are likely people who are high level and died recently or almost died. The amount of times I've heard someone say "If I lose XP for this, I'm done." Is staggering and should be very much concerning for the team as a whole.

Quite frankly, it's just bad game design. Sure there's a market for it but that market, on NWN is very very niche. And even those who have a taste for it have their limits. If I lost a level or two due to one bad mistake, and I didn't have anyway of getting that XP back aside from a month or more of DM quests, and if there wasn't anything that really kept me to the server, I'd quit. I'm looking for a game and world to have fun in, not one that fucks me over if something goes wrong for a sec or
Due to lag or whatever.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Snacks on June 15, 2018, 06:46:53 pm
Ever since I hit 15 I haven't died to anything save for things that were incredibly unfair (mid-DM event surprise implosion), bugs, and the one time very recently I suicided my character because I was having a RL emotional crisis and took it out on the game.

I used to RP build on this server until I realized that I was spending my entire time playing recovering xp from previous deaths. This was at LEVEL 8. Why did I keep dying? Because I wanted to play a goofy half-orc for the RP and went with a build that wasn't as popular because it seemed fun and within character theme. All it took was a stray fireball during a DM event, a careless spell from backline friendlies, or just looking at something with enough to-hit ALONE to tear through my not-bad but imperfectly built AC and it was right back to the grinder hoping I wouldn't die because of my choice to stay RPure.

I know how to powergame. I'm really good at it. I can enjoy it too but I also like playing goofy RP builds because those are fun too. I play to fit the game I'm in and was hoping that with Netheril I could bust out an old character that was sub-optimal but not awful build wise. Hope didn't work. I was frustrated, rebuilt for power and ever since it has worked. I never even played NwN until EE came out on steam, so I read the hell out of the wiki and looked for every possible edge I could find to get my numbers more buff. I don't even want to say how many hours played I have clocked but I can assure you that I am NOT an example of typical play.

The secret to maintaining higher levels? Don't die, don't take risks, and scrape the bottom of the barrel to accumulate as much stored power and advantage as you can. Every single combat I enter I am staring at my numbers, waiting for buffs to be replaced if they fall off my stack, looking at to-hit numbers, save DCs and alternating through different combat stances to optimize damage and AC balance. Even after all of that there is still a numerical cap to what you can and cannot take on. Retaining higher levels is NOT something I expect people to be able to do unless they've studied the game like I have, play religiously, and even then all it takes is one mistake to wipe away all of that. I can't even count how many times I've gotten to near death because I made a single error (like getting feared because Prot Evil dropped off and getting 10 consecutive fireballs thrown at me) and what for? 300 xp during a DM event? I lose 25 TIMES that assuming I get a full resurrection.

And then there are times you just lose. I have a screenshot of a battle log from the Oggron fight where I died in one round because there were three giants there with +38 to hit that weren't even the boss and crit for 115 damage. I ate that xp hit because it was a big battle despite WTFing the entire time.

TLDR: There will always be people who beat the odds, but that doesn't mean the odds are anywhere close to good. I got where I am because I game the system, am super lucky, and have ABSURD amounts of time to burn. I can do just fine in a game like this, but that is not and has not been the case for everyone else. Too much risk, not nearly enough reward.

People aren't asking for the removal of death penalty, just something that doesn't make you want to rage quit when you die to something meaningless or overstatted. I'm also talking about top end, not the bottom reduction that was 25 to 15% total xp loss. That helped lower levels, and was great, but it still scales awfully at the higher end when 5% of your TOTAL xp is like 6000
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Calabask on June 15, 2018, 07:01:38 pm
Ever since I hit 15 I haven't died to anything save for things that were incredibly unfair (mid-DM event surprise implosion), bugs, and the one time very recently I suicided my character because I was having a RL emotional crisis and took it out on the game.

I used to RP build on this server until I realized that I was spending my entire time playing recovering xp from previous deaths. This was at LEVEL 8. Why did I keep dying? Because I wanted to play a goofy half-orc for the RP and went with a build that wasn't as popular because it seemed fun and within character theme. All it took was a stray fireball during a DM event, a careless spell from backline friendlies, or just looking at something with enough to-hit ALONE to tear through my not-bad but imperfectly built AC and it was right back to the grinder hoping I wouldn't die because of my choice to stay RPure.

I know how to powergame. I'm really good at it. I can enjoy it too but I also like playing goofy RP builds because those are fun too. I play to fit the game I'm in and was hoping that with Netheril I could bust out an old character that was sub-optimal but not awful build wise. Hope didn't work. I was frustrated, rebuilt for power and ever since it has worked. I never even played NwN until EE came out on steam, so I read the hell out of the wiki and looked for every possible edge I could find to get my numbers more buff. I don't even want to say how many hours played I have clocked but I can assure you that I am NOT an example of typical play.

The secret to maintaining higher levels? Don't die, don't take risks, and scrape the bottom of the barrel to accumulate as much stored power and advantage as you can. Every single combat I enter I am staring at my numbers, waiting for buffs to be replaced if they fall off my stack, looking at to-hit numbers, save DCs and alternating through different combat stances to optimize damage and AC balance. Even after all of that there is still a numerical cap to what you can and cannot take on. Retaining higher levels is NOT something I expect people to be able to do unless they've studied the game like I have, play religiously, and even then all it takes is one mistake to wipe away all of that. I can't even count how many times I've gotten to near death because I made a single error (like getting feared because Prot Evil dropped off and getting 10 consecutive fireballs thrown at me) and what for? 300 xp during a DM event? I lose 25 TIMES that assuming I get a full resurrection.

And then there are times you just lose. I have a screenshot of a battle log from the Oggron fight where I died in one round because there were three giants there with +38 to hit that weren't even the boss and crit for 115 damage. I ate that xp hit because it was a big battle despite WTFing the entire time.

TLDR: There will always be people who beat the odds, but that doesn't mean the odds are anywhere close to good. I got where I am because I game the system, am super lucky, and have ABSURD amounts of time to burn. I can do just fine in a game like this, but that is not and has not been the case for everyone else. Too much risk, not nearly enough reward.

People aren't asking for the removal of death penalty, just something that doesn't make you want to rage quit when you die to something meaningless or overstatted. I'm also talking about top end, not the bottom reduction that was 25 to 15% total xp loss. That helped lower levels, and was great, but it still scales awfully at the higher end when 5% of your TOTAL xp is like 6000

QFT.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Petey on June 15, 2018, 07:29:20 pm
Consequences can be hard to swallow, especially when it comes to xp loss. That said, the fear of loss is a very real thing that characters should be aware of. Many things that the paragons of the server have done would have been cheapened if there wasn't a possibility of loss. Is it heroic to fight against demons or undead if failure doesn't effect your character at all?

Losing xp is rough, but xp or character level alone shouldn't define your character.

Removing an aspect of consequence in the game ultimately robs everyone of the feeling of accomplishment one might glean from taking risks.

Player cleric raises should be cheaper though, I agree.  That seems perfectly ic and makes clerics feel more like divine patrons than anything else.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Shantis on June 15, 2018, 07:31:44 pm
Feedback? Ok, Feedback.

The server get more aggressive to collect any xp above lvl 15, we could change the rules of death penalty. Instead just criticize, better suggest alternatives.

1 - 5% reduction of punishment for characters above lvl 15. There are no more constant sources of xp, and being limited only to dms events, the percentage decrease is more tolerable. Each dm gives xp ranging from 200 to 500 points, so losing 6000 hurts a lot but much less and is more acceptable. 5% looks fair punishment above lvl 15.

2 - A small tweak or change of dms posture in some points. Okay, I like them, I love them, I respect them. But if all the quests are too focused on just killing mobs, players will be encouraged to create combos and builds just to put up with this kind of event by throwing away any possibility of role-based roleplay or character archetype role.

3 - Character Development. If a character reaches lvl 15, it's time for players to stop a moment, think about everything they've done so far as characters, and see if it's worth continuing as adventurous heroes or villains, rather than pestering your favorite dm to take a rp job or icly role of influence on the server, in order to win XP with roleplay mainly, and serving as a hook to promote adventures (with or without DM) along with the younger low level characters. Adventuring? Good, if the world are in risk. No? Go, lowies, and make me proud...

4 - Know how to say "no", within your character's behavior and roleplay. Players may refuse to go to events, or step back, if they know they do not good enough to deal with the risks... Not heroic, but wise oocly. We have 3 noble houses, an arcane guild, another one of thiefs, a cult, a kingdom that floats to the skies.

And in the end, we received some good coins, some cool items, but ZERO ingame recognition in most cases. Once the characters are really bothered by the lack of recognition and prestige as a high level (+15) with the important npcs, they have every right to refuse to go. And this means, or the DM adjusts the adventure for the low level to account, or manages to compensate or value the high levels.

If the risk of dying bothers so much, a high-lvl hero or fighter could have retired and turned blacksmith icly. Each desperate npc arriving for help, he would point to a group of low levels to handle the emergency. Something really awful? Ok, I go and watch, guide people and if they follow my instructions, I protect them. But I "hate" doing this because no one are good enough to take my place.

5 - Now, a personal opinion... I play with a rogue 6 wizard 6, using ordinary arrows (it becomes fun to see the message ineffective weapon), with some small amount third-circle spells that barely do damage or difference in the end. I do not have infinite money to buy tons wands and potions to compensate this. And for a long time, I stopped giving buffs to the frontlines, because (in my view) if a character only can handle what is ahead, spending 10 minutes receiving buffs outside of the battlezone to die 2 seconds later against mobs (from pve or dm events ), is wasteful of effort and time.

I prefer not to contribute in this vicious circle, where players and enemies (pve or events) seek to become increasingly and insanity strong artificially, while other classes and roles, which can not stand the stride, are seeing from afar everything happen, without making a difference, being only walking potions and walking wands. Disposable and easy targets.

In this matter, changing punishment from the death system would not change the causes of death of the characters. Sorry, I'd better focus on my rp
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Calabask on June 15, 2018, 07:43:50 pm
Consequences can be hard to swallow, especially when it comes to xp loss. That said, the fear of loss is a very real thing that characters should be aware of. Many things that the paragons of the server have done would have been cheapened if there wasn't a possibility of loss. Is it heroic to fight against demons or undead if failure doesn't effect your character at all?

Losing xp is rough, but xp or character level alone shouldn't define your character.

Removing an aspect of consequence in the game ultimately robs everyone of the feeling of accomplishment one might glean from taking risks.

Player cleric raises should be cheaper though, I agree.  That seems perfectly ic and makes clerics feel more like divine patrons than anything else.

I've seen plenty of servers with much less harsh Respawn systems make death meaningful and impactful. If you can't do it without robbing someone of two months of work and RP, then well, there is something wrong with the system. It's as I said, bad game design that is catered to an /extrmel niche/ market on NWN. It is not something that is going to cause players to fluctuate to the server, it is more likely, to turn them away.

"Well who cares if they leave. Then this place isn't meant for them." You say, that's you forcing your own opinion on others, and that line of thinking leads to a server population in small numbers where DM's may out number actual players. Unfortunately as pointed out before, mechanical power has a direct translation to narrative power in many cases. People can try to fight it, gang up on someone, but there's always a chance DMs will say "No." to it happening, so you're eternally caught in a catch-22 where you and others may want to do something, but can't.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Petey on June 15, 2018, 08:00:12 pm
I do not suspect we will see eye to eye on this. You've asked for opinions and I have respectfully given mine.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Shantis on June 15, 2018, 08:01:32 pm
so you're eternally caught in a catch-22

Great book reference...
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Snacks on June 15, 2018, 10:50:51 pm
Here is what I see happen a lot on server.

1) Person logs into game, does whatever little things they do to prepare for their gaming session, says hello to people with a bit of RP and feels like going out and engaging the game's content.

2) Person sends out proclamation or otherwise tries to rally people to go and do things, but there aren't enough people interested or not enough people online to form a group capable of withstanding most content. They decide not to do it right then because they have to do said adventure six times over to recover from the death of ONE of them. Screw going into that half-cocked.

3) They wait, try to find people to RP with, do some crafting, try to solo but realize they're taking awful risks and will probably die, RP or craft a bit until they realize that's all they do and they just want to do something else.

4) Get bored, don't feel like playing with themselves, log out. Repeat to step 1.

XP and character level aren't everything that define my character, I love to RP with people, but there's a point where we've literally RPed the ever living hell out of things and are left needing some kind of new development. There are also times when I don't have anyone to RP with so I'm literally just telling stories to myself and I do that enough in real life I don't need to do it in NwN too.

Once again I don't think anyone's suggesting we REMOVE the death penalty, just adjust it so it scales with game difficulty and level.

My suggestion would be (Current Level-1)*500 = XP Lost. This means everyone loses half what it took to get from their last level to their current level. Raise reduces 25 percent and Resurrection reduces by 50 percent. That means if you get a full resurrection you still lose 25% of a level.




Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Rose on June 16, 2018, 01:04:27 am
I take risks. I gather people to do stuff whenever possible, and solo orcs and other dangerous stuff too. I die pretty often. Sometimes to my own stupidity or lack of preparation. I take on group content with suboptimal teams. With all this and the deaths I eat I'm still a high level though, and tend to only get one day off work each week to recover losses (usually still working on that day too with interviews or meetings). The playstyle I develop on my current character is 100% DNA rush head first into something, regardless of consequence, but even when I die I have fun. You don't have to be cautious at all or scared to take risks to keep a high level, or avoid deaths to be high level. You can die, do dangerous things, make ballsy plays and still maintain that level range. No risk no reward- though there could certainly be larger reward for characters that do take on greater risks and set themselves apart from the herd!

One of my larger concerns if the xp loss is reduced even further is that there will be much more people reaching level 15. Already there has been a big jump in max level availability.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Snacks on June 16, 2018, 01:52:53 am
I'm genuinely happy that you can do all of those things and have a blast, Rose. Unfortunately from my experience that is not the typical sentiment.

15 isn't max level, and I was under the impression that 15 was soft cap. What's wrong with letting people get to a point that you say is possible and then let the 'truly exceptional' characters struggle up the ladder past that if they want to? If you're relying on character death to keep people at a certain level then why not just move the level cap and let super levels start from there? I don't understand what this aversion is to letting people get to soft cap.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: Calabask on June 16, 2018, 01:59:15 am
Just because one person can do it doesn't mean the rest of the people can. And really you should be less concerned about people getting to the soft cap. It's not a bad thing and right now based on the poll, a good number of people feel like the XP penalties are too high.
Title: Re: Is the current Respawn and ressurection system to punishing?
Post by: ToxicWrench on June 16, 2018, 01:17:51 pm
This thread is a mess. There are a couple of  useful ideas on here that the DM team will discuss but for now I am locking this.

If anyone thinks of specific suggestions for changes to any of our systems including death penalties, be sure to post it in the suggestions forum. Cheers!  8)