Netheril : Age of Magic
Player Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cptzambie on September 17, 2018, 01:52:41 pm
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Hey everyone just wanted to start a discussion and hear some thoughts on the state of pvp on this server. I personally Feel that monster races should be able to pvp freely but have the fear of being killed on sight and i also believe that pvp should be permitted in places that dont have any npc's this would only be subdual only with full death of course having to go through a dm. Pvp can be awesome by creating some feared villains and also making some areas on the Server dangerous to trek alone. These are just my thoughts but i have seen it done on some successful servers and it usually is done well. Whats the harm in trying to make it less restrictive if it doesn't work and there are issues we can change it back.
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No pvp without a dm. Period.
I do not think the server is mature enough to handle this. And this story of "without npc around" leaves much scope for exploit.
This would create a new player category, which would specialize in upsetting and hounding players with characters who can not defend themselves by taking advantage of the absence of dms and acting in bad faith without any roleplaying.
It also gives rise to grief and toxic behavior. In my personal opinion, releasing pvp without the presence of a dm gives much scope for problems, frustrations and toxic behavior, unpleasant posture and a lot of bad situations.
And personally speaking, if someone can not be a villain by their own roleplay, in front of the dms and other players, using open pvp to hunt and kill characters without roleplay is a flawed point of argument.
Villains that depend on pvp are not villains. They are bullies because they can not be efficient, influential, capable of moving people and manipulating them. It is a character that fights because it is empty in all other fields.
This is my opinion on this. Others may think differently.
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And releasing a free, open pvp, would open a can of worms, because the next step would be perma without the presence of a dm. Or have a script to count how many deaths you may have before your perma.
And players who only make pvp as an asian mmo and not a roleplay server, will make the whole experience of playing more horrible for most playerbase.
Subdual mode is not perfect. And I doubt that anyone who practices pvp openly uses it on purpose. This is probably not a good idea. For various technical reasons and how to deal with the playerbase.
A pvp with subdual without dm is allowed if two players agree and activate it. Just ask. And the combat be accepted by both parties oocly. Good education and respect oocly do not prevent characters from facing each other without npcs or dms, if both parties are mature and responsible.
Another reason for this is that many people would abuse the freedom of pvp without dm and npcs to hunt and kill characters that make Crafting, killing them without warning, poping out invisible and attack, while the player have no time to react and unload the bag of materials. Or characters that all hate icly or have some pendency oocly, and go there and kill the character.
I've played on servers, where 15, 20 players have hunted one they all hated. And believe me, it's not something cool to see. The target stops playing or lives by hiding all time, losing all game fun. And whoever hunt them, does more for personal reasons, using an icly excuse to do this. No one continue to play in this type of ambient.
Really, do not think this server is mature enough to handle this kind of situation without dms. Personal opinion.
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Fair points but i disagree but thats just my opinion. its just an issue to try get a dm for every potential pvp moment and it is awkward if a dm is not on and you cant act on something your char would in char
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Fair points but i disagree but thats just my opinion. its just an issue to try get a dm for every potential pvp moment and it is awkward if a dm is not on and you cant act on something your char would in char
Unless it's a crazy serial killer or a perverted stalker, killing another character is something that requires motivation, opportunity, and planning. If you want to go out to kill any character that's just online, then this is not nice. So the presence of a dm is to ensure that nothing is done so out of roleplay or irresponsibly.
Another point is: If the character X and the player who controls it is respectable and responsible so that other players agree to do PvP with it or not.
It's all about respect and maturity. If the other players respect each other, they would not need the dms presence for this.
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Shantis i dont want Full death or killing to be permitted But Subdual.
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Shantis i dont want Full death or killing to be permitted But Subdual.
Subdual fail a lot. Personal experience.
And no way to other player know if the other side turned on the subdual before the pvp.
Subdual is ignored by spells system.
Another point is that each death without the subdual system devours xp. A lot xp. Free PvP would give an open gate for some abuses, to griefers killing one same character, making him lose level often, faster than he can recover.
And personally speaking, there are many players who suffer hate from others, and that a pvp released will make as soon as player X is online, he is hunted non-stop, taking all the fun of the game.
Really, personally speaking, I see only negative points for this, in the current server situation. Placing scripts does not teach respect and sensitivity to the fun of other players.
If character A want to "duel" with characer B, the players can share some tells and make a deal, and everyone can have fun. Without breaking the current rules. A matter of respect and being responsible with the other player.
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Fair but if subdual is indeed broken i believe the rules should be opened up if it is fixed. Roleplay servers are going to have conflict its fun but if people abuse others and or grief they will be dealt with by the dm's i am sure
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Fair but if subdual is indeed broken i believe the rules should be opened up if it is fixed. Roleplay servers are going to have conflict its fun but if people abuse others and or grief they will be dealt with by the dm's i am sure
This point is sensible.
Players can not get screenshot every time, and the context is not always perceived for the victim of griefing or even in the screenshots. Players who abuse within the rules of the game often happen. They make the life of the victim an icly and oocly hell, but they are smart enough to never cross the line or do the abuses openly.
The dms are dealing with dozens of things, besides dming quests and events, updating the mods and other priority situations. Sometimes, after reporting the problem, the griefer takes advantage only when the dm is offline. And it can take weeks before you collect evidence against the trouble maker.
The problem here is that no script can teach players to be responsible to each other. Or be mature enough to understand that there are limits of roleplay and actions that are icly done. And also, not always the type of fun of player A is the same as player B.
Opening pvp is something a lot more complex, and in the current state of things, in a server in beta state, with a lot of systems in a Work In progress, opening pvp withou a mature playerbase and clear, responsible behavior of the players, is a dangerous option
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While I largely agree with Zambie, perhaps a middle ground would be for players who feel comfortable with PvP to put an OOC note in their character description? Something like this:
//The player of this character consents to PvP in unpopulated areas without the need for a DM presence.
You could also list the acceptable types: Subdual, Full Damage, Permadeath. Although Permadeath might require a DM no matter what, up to the team.
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In my humble opinion monsters should be KoS (and be able to KoS others) with no DM oversight needed.
Other PvP... ehhh you should probably have a DM to oversee it and keep it as is.
Players should never have a say in perma or not, unless they are making that decision for their own character.
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The issue with unmonitored pvp is that the pvp advocates on the server are a vocal minority rather than the majority of the playerbase. The rest of the players are either indifferent on the subject, or against it. The current rules ensure those who seek pvp have established sufficient character conflict to warrant such an encounter. This creates a higher standard for the roleplay behind pvp encounters and, in my opinion, allows a better story to be told from such as opposed to outright attacking someone over a minor insult or other trivial matter. The rules also protect those, such as myself, who do not enjoy or wish to participate in pvp. I have openly stated OOC that I do not wish to participate in pvp and I rarely find it enjoyable, yet despite my wishes have been forced into such situations in the past with little to no build-up or character conflict involved. This was not fun at all, it has caused me to quit the game before. It has also shown me some people are so overeager to pvp that they ignore the OOC courtesy they should have for their fellow players. In short, I do not believe we are ready for such a change yet and at this time it would prove more detrimental than beneficial.
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My experience with PvP comes from another server. There, PvP has a specific set of rules that must be followed by all players. Those who abuse or do not follow the rules are punished and/or banned. And DMs are at liberty to retcon an event.
PvP does require maturity and courtesy from the player base. And a functional system. If you say subdual is broken, then it should be fixed before PvP is considered.
There can also be several type of PvP settings that could be discussed. This is the one I am familiar with:
Sparring (no loot drop, can get up as soon as downed, for when you want to spare safely with friends)
Beatdown (get beaten down, no loot drop and pc must wait a time before being able to get up)
Subdual (loot drop but no killing, and need time to get up)
Full Damage (kills PC and drops loot)
Full damage being the only mode that can end is permadeath per DM discretion.
PvP rules also need to be clear but simple. Depending how the community feels about PvP, you could open certain areas for PvP without DM supervision with restrictions to subdual and no PK. You could restrict PvP to damage only, no looting, no killing. (and no leaving in the wilderness for spawns to kill, lets have some courtesy for our fellow players). You can have monsters kill on sight or all player require dm supervision when pvp is wanted. This is a serious discussion that the community needs to have if it wants PvP.
In the end, it is at the discretion of the DM team to decide what sort of server they want to run and if they want to manage the PITA that can be PvP. I've been on all end of it (even as a DM), and it can get messy fast. But it can also be quite fun for those who enjoy this sort of conflict. Me personally, I've never been a fan of PvP and avoid it generally. Though a good spar with friend is always fun and it is a form of PvP.
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I personally don't like or want to be a part of player disputes that need to result in PvP. Some take it to the point that they just piss off allot of people and then they get hunted down and results in perma one way or another. Disrupting and PvP just to disrupt causes allot of player resentment, and just results in people not enjoying the story and game. The only one enjoying this is the only one that enjoys the experience and results in just bulling.
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I'd love to respect peoples desires to stay clear of PvP but in my anecdotal experience the people who wish to remain outside of PvP often use this excuse to be openly IC insulting, provocative and degrading to other party while using their desire to stay clear of PvP as a screen to avoid consequence. If I wanted to trade insults in the playground like a child perhaps I would be more open to handling the situation this way but when one side wants to behave in such a way without consequence then I begin to see issues with the implementation of such a ruleset.
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i agree with Ectheledhel ive seen this happen alot on the servers ive played on. Players that dont like pvp but go around insulting other pc's and try cause a war of words.
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I will not take it personally as it is, sadly, a reality that I've seen also. Something I try to avoid as much as possible also. If someone does not like PvP they should not taunt others because they think they are safe. But unfortunately, this is not a perfect world. If I meet someone like that, I just walk away if possible.
in the end, as long as the pvp rules are clear, then everyone should be able to play by them.
Perhaps players can have an agreement between themselves that they want to pvp with each other but will leave others that do not want to alone? Might get complicated...
Sorry, I always try my best to find a middle ground in things ;D
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Adding unmonitored pvp to the open world areas wouldn't fix that issue, if someone is dedicated to insulting while avoiding consequences they will find ways to continue doing such. Simply logging out or using the proclaimer within a populated no-pvp area are tactics that have already been used by such people and will continue to be used even if unsupervised pvp is enabled. Which would result in having to get a DM anyway to deal with such harassment.
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Some people just get a kick from disrupting others game play and use PvP to do this, just because I don't like to do pvp doesn't mean I will run around insulting others I just don't like player conflict. I come here to have fun and some one constantly trying to provoke or force people into pvp is not something I enjoy.
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Our PvP rules are in place and will not be changed at any time in the foreseeable future. We had to make them as they are now because the community showed time and time again that they could not handle PvP in a positive and mature way. Until we see a change that shows this is no longer true, the rules as they are now will remain.
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Grim, if that is the way you behave then you're not the problem. But a player being IC abusive constantly without consequence is just as disrupting to gameplay as a murder hobo. PvP has a time and place I believe but there are clearly problem players on both sides who abuse the rules. While this opinion may not cause a change in the rules regarding PvP I think it's important to recognise that from what little anecdotal information has been supplied here that the issue is not the rules or PvP but problem players who abuse the rules at the expense of others.
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The Golden Rule:
Talk Shit, Get Hit.
The Silver Law:
Do unto Others, as you would have them do unto you.
AKA: Don't talk shit if you don't wanna get hit.
Simple, really.
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EXACTLY! couldn't of said it better myself! :D
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Our PvP rules are in place and will not be changed at any time in the foreseeable future. We had to make them as they are now because the community showed time and time again that they could not handle PvP in a positive and mature way. Until we see a change that shows this is no longer true, the rules as they are now will remain.
I second to this. I've had people blatantly try to lie to dismiss the outcomes/legality of pvp situations in the past. Frankly, the server is guilty until proven otherwise as far as my book goes -.-
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Someone had their familiar out in Hadrian harassing people and physically touching and bothering them and couldn't get a DM to smack it :(
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No one should be abusing the pvp rules as a shield for antagonism that they might not otherwise do ig.
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So report abuses to the dm's just because some one annoys you doesn't mean you should kill them use your words and there are laws.
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That depends entirely on your character. If you're playing a chaotic-aligned character, you're not likely to give a damn and punch someone if they're bothering you. However, since that's pvp, they run into the 'dm absence' issue that ultimately results in the rule being exploited v.s protective.
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Our PvP rules are in place and will not be changed at any time in the foreseeable future. We had to make them as they are now because the community showed time and time again that they could not handle PvP in a positive and mature way. Until we see a change that shows this is no longer true, the rules as they are now will remain.
perhaps this thread should be discussing how we as a communinity can improve our maturity in regards to pvp.
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That's easy.
Have fun. Learn to enjoy loosing. :)
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A few points...
No pvp without a dm. Period.
I do not think the server is mature enough to handle this.
I disagree. You know how this gets handled on servers with successful PvP rules?
1) Openly insulting and/or provoking someone is an open invitation to PvP. (Why? Because people often try to hide behind PvP rules as a way to avoid maintaining IC civility and then prevent retaliation.)
2) DMs and Players start saying, "NO fussing when you lose, absolutely none." (No one whines. Whiners get reprimanded by DMs.)
3) The loser of any PvP encounter is ruled to have their memory wiped of anything hostile during the last 24 hours. (In other words, you remember that really cool and useful (for a quest, for example), but your character can't remember the PvP encounter.)
PvP guidelines need to be in place. Being able to engage in bad behavior (IC or OOC) is not something rules should allow.
In my humble opinion monsters should be KoS (and be able to KoS others) with no DM oversight needed.
Yes. Monster race players are aware of what they signed up for, frankly.
Players should never have a say in perma or not, unless they are making that decision for their own character.
I agree. No player should be able to perma-kill any character but their own.
Some take it to the point that they just piss off allot of people and then they get hunted down and results in perma one way or another.
So? Let them get hunted down. Grab a DM, and let them organize things such that a perma can be handed out, if appropriate. If you piss everyone off and only cause damage and chaos and generally be an asshat IC, the consequence might just be that they eventually kill your character.
but in my anecdotal experience the people who wish to remain outside of PvP often use this excuse to be openly IC insulting, provocative and degrading to other party while using their desire to stay clear of PvP as a screen to avoid consequence.
I've also seen this on other servers. Fact is, if you were IC insulting, provocative, and/or degrading in real life, it causes issues. (Fight starts [hopefully not], the thrower of insults get reported to HR, etc., etc., etc.) In a setting like Netheril, openly insulting someone is asking for a consequence... such as a duel. ;)
And from a mechanical perspective, maybe, just maybe, that loss of xp if you lose the duel will teach you to be more careful who you pick IC fights with. ;D
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I disagree. You know how this gets handled on servers with successful PvP rules?
1) Openly insulting and/or provoking someone is an open invitation to PvP. (Why? Because people often try to hide behind PvP rules as a way to avoid maintaining IC civility and then prevent retaliation.)
2) DMs and Players start saying, "NO fussing when you lose, absolutely none." (No one whines. Whiners get reprimanded by DMs.)
3) The loser of any PvP encounter is ruled to have their memory wiped of anything hostile during the last 24 hours. (In other words, you remember that really cool and useful (for a quest, for example), but your character can't remember the PvP encounter.)
PvP guidelines need to be in place. Being able to engage in bad behavior (IC or OOC) is not something rules should allow
This is what we had initially, more or less. And it didn't work.
When the entire DM team has to stop what they're working on and deal with the fallout of a single PvP encounter for days at a time, dealing with dramatics, tears and rage quits. Something isn't working.
So as the others have said, until everyone learns to play nice and start acting like PvP is part of the game not a personal attack, we have our current rules.
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I tried another server and there players were mature and welcomed non moderated pvp with opened arms. I hope one day our players will mature since this is just a game at the end of the day if you char gets beaten down for in char things then so what it adds to your characters story.
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Maybe it would help if we were willing to open up our view on what PvP interaction might actually mean. If we think that it is an interaction that is more than the possible draining of HP, it would be clear for us that PvP already started when you decide, for instance, to:
- openly provoke/ insult a PC, be it through words or be it through actions that could end up enraging them;
- steal/ pick pocket someone;
- be hostile to a player and let your familiar to harass them for you.
Le us not not mistake arguments/ discussion/ altercation with provoking/ insulting beyond reason although. The line is blurred, I know, but there is a line that separate such. Common sense helps here.
At my first days here I honestly liked it a lot the current ruling of "no PvP without DM supervision". More on my general agreement that the playerbase although very inspired and creative still lacked some maturity indeed. I was relieved that I would not have to worry to be alone in a PvP here without the supervision of papa and mommy. That said, as I have spent more time here with this ruling, it came to me that it had a very interesting and refreshing (probably unexpected at the start) outcome: this has been forcing players to figure out how to generate and solve conflicts between their characters without going straight forward to the skull-bashing-and-kill solution. These almost two months that I have spent here allowed me to notice that several PCs have a long term conflict going on and their relationships had the time to build up and become really complex. This probably would not be possible if they were up to solve it "easily" by the tip of a sword or of a "Slay Living" weaving.
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I want to take part in this discussion to offer a point and in my opinion the biggest point and most important of all.
PVP on this server simply can't work because there's huge imbalances in character power.
There's characters who've been around for almost a year and are near lvl 20, showered in DM loot and can one shoot you.
No matter your skill in pvp there's no way you can have a chance beat such a character unless you wait to gear up and get levels which makes the RP -stale and boring- much like Arelith is in my opinion.
Unless there's some kind of balance in power for the majority of the playerbase like EFU has because it's a pvp server, pvp can't happen.
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i Disagree Considering it doesn't take too long to get high lvl without power questing here. Also every server has characters that are stronger because they have been around for awhile pretty hard to stop that just have to think outside the box to bring them down. A lvl 11 can beat a lvl 20 if they wanted to...
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PVP should be the resort of in character actions that causes a reaction, I'm past the point in my nwn career that i really don't give a toss about what happens to my character. But requiring DM to Monitor Pvp is a bit extreme and in many cases, it sort of leads to this stagnation in character development and causes a weird camp fire, hug box effect that makes server stagnate, seen it happened before, I've been playing nwn for over a decade, lay down some ground work, promote a friend open minded culture that isn't afraid of conflict and reduce the OOC that spreads when Character A beat down B, that causes even MORE drama.
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I want to take part in this discussion to offer a point and in my opinion the biggest point and most important of all.
PVP on this server simply can't work because there's huge imbalances in character power.
There's characters who've been around for almost a year and are near lvl 20, showered in DM loot and can one shoot you.
No matter your skill in pvp there's no way you can have a chance beat such a character unless you wait to gear up and get levels which makes the RP -stale and boring- much like Arelith is in my opinion.
Unless there's some kind of balance in power for the majority of the playerbase like EFU has because it's a pvp server, pvp can't happen.
In my 8 years of playing persistent worlds of NWN I have only won a major PvP plot with mechanical power twice. All the other victories I have revolve around long term planning and executing intrigue which undermined the power base of the character we were targeting and eventually lead to their fall. A level 1 CAN defeat a level 20 in PvP, but they aren't going to do it in a fair, toe-to-toe fight.
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The funny thing is that several of the highest level players have only had those characters for a few months no way near a year. You cant expect players that only log a few hours a day or a week will be near those that play 40 plus hours a week. Should we punish those players that take time to develop their characters in favor of those casual players just be cause they feel left behind.
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Every game has a time investment = reward mechanic. The more time you can play, the more powerful or equipped or friends you have.
That's every game.